Leaning to Climb Tradtionally Indoors

Climbing traditionally and indoors are mutually exclusive concepts. "Trad" climbing entails a whole lot more than just plugging gear.

Ted Pinson wrote:This is a solution in need of a problem if ever I've seen one...

perfectly said ha

It is more appealing to me if you are marketing them as variable bolt-on crack holds. I wouldn't mind having a few of those and I know my gym which is too cheap to put in a real crack system might be interested in having a few just to be able to set crack routes and keep their members happy. It's cheaper than getting enterprise to come in and build another wall just for crack climbing.

Shut it down Lemon!

Good on ya for trying something, but this is NOT a good idea for so so so so so many reasons. Seriously, please listen to what we are saying.

People aren't really learning to trad climb by doing this and it is not a good idea for them to have an inflated ego when they transition from the gym to the real deal. Cam's are the easiest type of gear to place and as already mentioned this doesn't come close to accounting for all the variability of real rock. It also doesn't teach how to identify bad placements or suspect rock. Gear routes usually see less traffic thus having a tendency for more loose debris and suspect holds. Also you can really screw gear routes up and cause a lot of dangerous situations by doing things like placing cams behind thin flakes, wet sand stone etc.

Traditional climbing = variable conditions and run outs; it requires adaptability and the ability to use a range of gear to manage risk. This is not what someone learns in a gym and it is not even remotely close to the message people get in the gym. Gear climbing is not just sport climbing with cams. It is so much more than that. Basically the whole point of gear climbing is to do it outdoors in uncontrolled environments. If you try to make it controlled like this you are setting people up for a dangerous transition. It needs to be learned outside.

If you want the novelty of owning shiny cams and clipping them to feel like a bad ass inside then this looks like it would be a winner. We've all seen that guy at the gym who shows up to TR or sport climb with a rack of cams clipped to his harness (and I'm sure he/she would love this). But for "learning trad" no way any day. People aren't learning anything here but how to unclip something from their harness, pull a trigger and then clip a rope. If anything people are getting a false sense of security for an inherently insecure and dangerous activity that is not to be taken lightly.

Courtesy of Aleks Z.

climbing friend,

Ho ho ho ha ha!

Yes it is true, one does not simply "get into" trad!

If you would be trying practice the dark arts, it would be much less costly, less prone to disaster, better for the learning climbing friend, etc., to have them read appropriate texts, and then simply place and bounce test gear at real cliff on ground level, and next you are giving them belay of toprope while they aid climb some pitches, and next you are having them follow you for some pitches and then next yes you are sending them up for lead flash some 5.6 choss gulley with plentiful large blocks and prickling vegetation, for first vision quest of the trad, and you may follow and be inspector of the gear.

I don't understand this site. So you post an idea asking for a boatload of money in exchange for some basically worthless crap? Doesn't investing in a company/idea usually come with a stake in said company? Or at least eventually equal value in what you provided up front?

Even if I thought this was a good idea (which I don't for reasons already stated), why would I give you money for for nothing, so you can develop a product and profit?

Smells like a cash-grab to me.

Brian L. wrote:I don't understand this site. So you post an idea asking for a boatload of money in exchange for some basically worthless crap? Doesn't investing in a company/idea usually come with a stake in said company? Or at least eventually equal value in what you provided up front? Even if I thought this was a good idea (which I don't for reasons already stated), why would I give you money for for nothing, so you can develop a product and profit? Smells like a cash-grab to me.

The same can be said for any kickstarter/indigogo project. You donate money but don't own a stake in the company that you help get off the ground. Why anyone do it, I don't know.

You might get a cool t-shirt or one of the first prototypes if you are lucky.

kck wrote: The same can be said for any kickstarter/indigogo project. You donate money but don't own a stake in the company that you help get off the ground. Why anyone do it, I don't know. You might get a cool t-shirt or one of the first prototypes if you are lucky.

I have backed quite a number of crowdfunded projects, but the ones I back are ones where I get an actual product out of the deal. Sometimes it is a wise choice, other times not so much. This campaign is doomed to fail because they are asking way too much money for way too little value. $1,000s just for 3-D printed models and some nick knacks?

Rather, +1 for vision quest a la Aleks

Matt Himmelstein wrote: I have backed quite a number of crowdfunded projects, but the ones I back are ones where I get an actual product out of the deal. Sometimes it is a wise choice, other times not so much. This campaign is doomed to fail because they are asking way too much money for way too little value. $1,000s just for 3-D printed models and some nick knacks?

Yeah that's basically my point. Usually the premise is "pre-order my product, plus some other stuff if you want, so I can develop my product and get it to you, otherwise the product will never get made". Then you hope they can deliver.

This one is, "give me hundreds, or thousands, of dollars in exchange for a tiny fraction of that in (retail) value so I can either profit off your foolishness (and not make a product), or fund my development and profit off that (and give you nothing)".

Hey all, I appreciate the feedback!
A few things I can clarify for you. This isn't meant to replace trad climbing but to provide a training ground for climbers to learn. Unfortunately not everyone is comfortable learning from a friend that learned from a friend etc.
This specific device has several variations that are also provisionally patented to provide not just a range but a placement for every piece of trad climbing equipment. And not just in the stones but in a variation of stones(also provisionally patented)and in custom stones so that a climber can take a picture of a cool route that they want to work on and send it to NHCS and we will lay the surface on a stone for you.(Also provisionally patented)
To be allowed in gyms it must be load rated and UAII certified for insurance purposes and b/c all climbing equipment is.
I've heard it looks too simple, silly, and that it might never work, but I've already got the testing to prove it works.
The Website will be up and running soon and will really clarify more than I can answer in a single post and many breaths.
Thank each of you for your feedback. For those of you who had a problem with the Campaign site here is the direct link: igg.me/at/NativeHeightsClim…

• *Also please note that the campaign isn't to sell the device, its to get over all the hurdles associated with getting the device to where it can be sold. I've been putting my own money into it because I know it will work and that it will bring a whole new aspect to training during the off season, as well as open up areas climbers are allowed to climb in, simply because people won't just be throwing up routes, they will be taking out gear with confidence and hiking in to trad climb the new lines.**

Hope you will all give it a chance!
Stay tuned for a video in about 4 weeks of me fall testing the first device!

-Hilton

how does one lean trad?

Hilton Bennett wrote:To be allowed in gyms it must be load rated and UAII certified for insurance purposes and b/c all climbing equipment is.

please.. UIAA

very confidence inspiring that my $5k donation will be put to good work

I hope you have a backup plan. This campaign is going to bomb. You might make $3k if you're lucky.

Just because it will work doesn't mean it's a good idea.

Trad does not equal cam placing. It's evaluating whether you can safely forge ahead. Trusting yourself and when you don't, determining whether to trust your gear. It's learning hand, finger, elbow, knee, ass, and foot jamming techniques. It's getting your god dammed approach shoes eaten by marmots. It's risking huge falls because you're too pumped to get another piece in or the route doesn't take any more gear. It's draining all your energy placing a piece from a terrible stance only to learn there was a bomber handcrack a foot higher. It's placing gear in the one and only jam in the neighborhood, then taking it out, getting scared, then putting it back in - repeat until you make a decision.

Trad is not and never will be a 6" crack you can stuff a cam into at the climbing wall.

Back to the drawing board.

With my limited trad mileage, I would say that placing a cam in a crack within it's proper expansion range is about 5% of what you need to know while trad climbing...

One other note about the product getting made.
When I started designing this November of 2014 I had no intention of over selling it for a profit. I wanted a way to learn and be taught how to trad climb in a way I could test the placement without risking death. A year later when I had my first prototype ready, and wanted to test it I realized from the immense feedback I got that I wasn't the only one that felt that way and was told that it couldn't be in the gym with out a load rating. That path lead me to needing patents, which led me to a venture creation competition, which led me to getting those provisional patents and a wealth of feedback.
At this time I'm not selling the company or offering shares in the company; its about making this device affordable, safe, effective, and at the highest grade first, and to do that at the end of the day Native Heights cant owe a bunch of money to investors who are going to push for subgrade materials so they can turn a profit.
For those of you who are interested in getting a device for your contribution talk to me. Let me know what you think a fair price would be for a device that you and gyms will only have to buy once. For a device that has a higher load rating than any piece of equipment we climb on. That you will only need to interchange stones out of as they wear at a slower rate than climbing holds.
I've over designed this device for sure not because I into wasting money but because I know gyms aren't, and because I'd rather know that the climbing walls would cave in before my device failed, and lastly because if I make a product I want it to be beyond great, and to raise the standard, not lower it.

I'm passionate about this device and I'm going to see it through to completion and beyond just getting it on that wall.

Also i'm not sure how many of you have ever contributed to a campaign before but every site has protections for the contributors so that if you don't get your product, or promise the person who received the money is held liable. Consider that. Here's an additional link to a story that was in recent news about a mom who used a crowd funding page to get money for her child's cancer treatments but really used the money to buy clothes and jewelry. Really messed up if you ask me. nydailynews.com/news/crime/…

Looking forward to hearing more from you all!

Hilton Bennett wrote:This specific device has several variations that are also provisionally patented to provide not just a range but a placement for every piece of trad climbing equipment.

It would be good to show more of these variations; the device as first shown looks much too simple, like those toys that teach toddlers how to match the square peg with the square hole. "The cow goes moo. The cam goes here."

For example, a version that's 3 feet long with a variety of placement options (both good and bad) would be much better at helping the climber learn to spot placements and also let people practice their jamming techniques.

Hilton Bennett wrote:Hey all, I appreciate the feedback! A few things I can clarify for you. This isn't meant to replace trad climbing but to provide a training ground for climbers to learn. Unfortunately not everyone is comfortable learning from a friend that learned from a friend etc.

This device is meant to replace the *rock*, you still need someone qualified to teach you - if you're not comfortable learning from a friend, then you will need to pay someone to teach you, that will be true indoors or outdoors. I'm concerned that the intro video shows you saying, basically, "I couldn't figure out how to learn trad climbing, so..." I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but that likely makes you not the best person to know what the best way is to teach gear placement.

And, as others have pointed out, "leaning to climb tradtionally" involves a LOT more than just gear placement. I am afraid this will just set people up to head outdoors with false confidence. We already see that on sport climbs, with gym climbers assuming they already know everything they need to know to transition to outdoors. Always best to seek out an experienced mentor or qualified guide.

Hilton Bennett wrote: This specific device has several variations that are also provisionally patented to provide not just a range but a placement for every piece of trad climbing equipment. And not just in the stones but in a variation of stones(also provisionally patented)and in custom stones so that a climber can take a picture of a cool route that they want to work on and send it to NHCS and we will lay the surface on a stone for you.(Also provisionally patented)

This... just makes no sense at all. I'm sorry, I'm going out on a limb to say that your trad climbing experience is zero or extremely limited or you would understand how this makes no sense. Someone is going to take a picture of every gear placement on a route? (inspecting it on rap?) but rather than simply try out gear placements right there in the rock, they're going to send photos to your company, you're going to recreate those gear placements on these holds, and then weeks or months later that person will try to convince a gym to hang up this series of gear placement replicas, to climb in the gym and "practice" this specific set of gear placements... so they are then ready to climb that specific route?
I'm sorry... just no... that makes no sense at all.

Hilton Bennett wrote:To be allowed in gyms it must be load rated and UAII certified for insurance purposes and b/c all climbing equipment is.

This is a huge red flag, as the fact that you don't even know the proper name for the certification indicates that you haven't done even the slightest amount of research into what it takes to get this certification. (Unless, is this an off-brand knock-off cert?)

Hilton Bennett wrote:I've heard it looks too simple, silly, and that it might never work, but I've already got the testing to prove it works. The Website will be up and running soon and will really clarify more than I can answer in a single post and many breaths. Thank each of you for your feedback. For those of you who had a problem with the Campaign site here is the direct link: igg.me/at/NativeHeightsClim… **Also please note that the campaign isn't to sell the device, its to get over all the hurdles associated with getting the device to where it can be sold. I've been putting my own money into it because I know it will work and that it will bring a whole new aspect to training during the off season, as well as open up areas climbers are allowed to climb in, simply because people won't just be throwing up routes, they will be taking out gear with confidence and hiking in to trad climb the new lines.** Hope you will all give it a chance! Stay tuned for a video in about 4 weeks of me fall testing the first device! -Hilton

So, have you tested this or not?

As for the campaign, I mean go for it, you never know. But most people contribute to campaigns for one of three reasons:

1. They are basically pre-ordering the product - often at a slight discount over what the projected MSRP will be. Sometimes paying a slight premium to be the first to get the product, and/or because they really want the product to come to market.

2. They believe in the product so much and want it to be produced so badly that they are willing to "invest" in the future existence of the product.

3. They are your family and friends and are actually donating to you, not investing in the product.

Based on your price levels and rewards, you are obviously not doing 1 or 2, so for the budget you're looking at I hope you've got a WHOLE lot of family and friends to make this work. The fact that you are looking for $75 grand in funding before you've even tested the first prototype is a red flag, as is your flexible funding - this means that even if you don't reach your funding threshold you will keep all the money anyway. If you only get $1000 total, will you be able to produce this product? People are more likely to risk their hard-earned cash if they know it will be returned if you aren't able to complete your project.

It's an interesting idea, I just don't see either the funding campaign or the product itself as very viable. It might be worth seriously considering kck's idea - think of this as crack handholds, rather than gear placements. Crack climbing is an area where many gyms fall short in terms of training opportunities, and it could be great for a gym to be able to set routes with crack holds without redesigning their wall. Also, it would not have to be nearly as strong.

Good luck!