How do you like this tether/ rappel extension ?

Eric Moss wrote: So fun! Anyway, the AMGA is redundant by some definition, but not by mine.

Yup, quoting you from earlier. Emphasis mine.

Brian L. wrote: Yup, quoting you from earlier. Emphasis mine.

Yeah, that's my definition. You can take it or leave it, doesn't bother me.

I mean, there's redundant, then there's redundant, haha. Actually, the video is different than the book. I prefer the video, I'd guess it's more redundant.

I'll coin a new term: re-fucking-dundant - when sequential failures are independent. So AMGA is redundant, but not re-fucking-dundant.

On second thought, I would call the AMGA video re-fucking-dundant. Even if one strand breaks anywhere, at least one of the loops holding the belay biner will hold. Good to know. Thanks for sharing that video.

Exactly.

Like I said, it should tell you something when these well established things aren't good enough for you.

Hence the shit-storm all your posts become. Hence the comments about maybe climbing isn't for you. You act all sore because that's the response you get, but that's WHY.

You come off sounding like you think you know better than anyone else. If that's the case, why bother posting? Do your thing your way, why do you need MP approval? You know by now this is the response you're going to get, and you know better anyway, right?

Brian L. wrote:Exactly. Like I said, it should tell you something when these well established things aren't good enough for you. Hence the shit-storm all your posts become. Hence the comments about maybe climbing isn't for you. You act all sore because that's the response you get, but that's WHY. You come off sounding like you think you know better than anyone else. If that's the case, why bother posting? Do your thing your way, why do you need MP approval? You know by now this is the response you're going to get, and you know better anyway, right?

Whatever. You're a bully and a hater.

Eric,
I have noticed your two forum posts regarding upgrading already established and accepted (and safe) systems for anchors and rappel extensions. It is becoming rather obvious that you have the knowledge to rig correctly but lack actual experience outdoors. You are not getting the responses you are looking for on online forums and you will more than likely not receive the positive feedback that you are seeking. Please hire a local guide and have them teach you the basics. They will be the best source to answer your questions (not the internet).

... and around, and around we go.

Slow down, or change direction, please. Some seem to be getting sick.

Eric Moss wrote: Whatever. You're a bully and a hater.

Point of fact, I'm neither bullying you, nor hating on you. Just calling it like I see it. In fact, I see my own experience mirrored in your posts. Granted I wasn't coming up with new things, just discussing more controversial things like Sliding-X. But I had a similar attitude. And now I see why, and am just trying to pass that on. You can hide behind "these people are just assholes", or you can listen, and understand what's actually going on.

Eric Moss wrote: It does make sense for developing safe practices. Does it make sense to tie stopper knots in the rope on a short rappel? No, but I do it every time to develop the habit. I can't speak to the exact motivation of these authors, but redundancy wherever you can get it certainly makes sense to me. Usually, it's so easy to do anyway, so why not? That said, if I had a PAS, I'd use it. I'm torn on the issue of whether the rappel backup knot can actually backup your belay attachment and I assume it might depend on the knot. I use a French prusik, which is certainly capable of backing up my hands, but I don't trust it to catch my body weight.

I have ascended ropes with a prusik and and tested the holding strength of it on rappel. I weight 200 lbs without gear. Trust me, it will hold your weight.

Short Fall Sean wrote:Eric, if you don't like the response you're getting here, perhaps you should try an engineering forum. The people I've come across that worry about this kind of thing tend to be much better engineers/scientists than they are rock climbers.

I was thinking more like a macrame art forum.

Eric Moss wrote: Okay, but why does the literature recommend a redundant belay extension?

For extending the belay past the master point, then yes redundancy is important. ie, double slings or single sling doubled with a knot in the middle.

Nobody extends a rappel with a two sling.

Eric Moss wrote: Whatever. You're a bully and a hater.

Most of the responses are simply fellow climbers sharing their opinion on a topic for which you specifically solicited opinions.

You're the only one I see consistently name-calling.
You have a great opportunity to learn here - people are patiently giving you a lot of advice and information. Be open-minded enough to listen, or stop asking questions you don't want the answers to.

Eric, if you want to actually have a discussion on this then you should actually make arguments rather than name calling. If my previous post was not sufficient to dissuade you from using an overly complicated system then what about my arguments were incorrect?
If you really want a redundant rappel tether just use two slings each girth hitched to your hard points or belay loop and tie an overhand knot in each. Then you can have a locking biner on the end of each (above the overhand) to clip into each bolt and then just clip your rappel device through both slings below the overhand knot (this also allows you to transfer your weight to your rappel device completely before unclipping the biners that are attached to the bolts). A similar set up can be done with a single double length sling.
This is not only much simpler than what you are proposing but lighter and more versatile (you would need 5 biners with your proposed set up to accomplish the same thing).

Brady3 wrote:Eric, if you want to actually have a discussion on this then you should actually make arguments rather than name calling. If my previous post was not sufficient to dissuade you from using an overly complicated system then what about my arguments were incorrect? If you really want a redundant rappel tether just use two slings each girth hitched to your hard points or belay loop and tie an overhand knot in each. Then you can have a locking biner on the end of each (above the overhand) to clip into each bolt and then just clip your rappel device through both slings below the overhand knot (this also allows you to transfer your weight to your rappel device completely before unclipping the biners that are attached to the bolts). A similar set up can be done with a single double length sling. This is not only much simpler than what you are proposing but lighter and more versatile (you would need 5 biners with your proposed set up to accomplish the same thing).

First of all, don't tell me what to do or how to argue.

Second, thanks for your pointed criticism. It's a refreshing departure from the hackneyed retort of "your thing is different, therefore it is stupid", or "the climbing community has been doing it this other way for x years, therefore no new method will surpass existing methods", or my personal favorite "you just don't have enough experience to know what level of risk is acceptable".

I hadn't considered something like you're proposing, which I presume is for sport climbing. It seems very appropriate and useful, and I'll definitely keep in mind.

I'm confused about how you're getting to a count of five biners with my setup. I count three. Note that it's only meant to have one attachment point in tether mode, unlike yours with two.

To the subject of your earlier arguments, I'm sorry to say I didn't find them convincing. For one thing, I don't find my system more complicated than other systems; it's essentially the same, really, except that I can remove it without undoing a girth hitch, which is a plus for me. You seem to be arguing that redundancy isn't as necessary if you take good care of your gear, which is true, but it's so easy to create redundancy that I have to do it.

Is this setup more to your liking?



Thanks again

Eric Moss wrote: First of all, don't tell me what to do or how to argue. Second, thanks for your pointed criticism. It's a refreshing departure from the hackneyed retort of "your thing is different, therefore it is stupid", or "the climbing community has been doing it this other way for x years, therefore no new method will surpass existing methods", or my personal favorite "you just don't have enough experience to know what level of risk is acceptable". I hadn't considered something like you're proposing, which I presume is for sport climbing. It seems very appropriate and useful, and I'll definitely keep in mind. I'm confused about how you're getting to a count of five biners with my setup. I count three. Note that it's only meant to have one attachment point in tether mode, unlike yours with two. To the subject of your earlier arguments, I'm sorry to say I didn't find them convincing. For one thing, I don't find my system more complicated than other systems; it's essentially the same, really, except that I can remove it without undoing a girth hitch, which is a plus for me. You seem to be arguing that redundancy isn't as necessary if you take good care of your gear, which is true, but it's so easy to create redundancy that I have to do it. Is this setup more to your liking? Thanks again

That looks good. I used a very similar setup for a couple of years. It is safe, cheap and easy to use.

Mark E Dixon wrote: I was thinking more like a macrame art forum.

Yeah, that's certainly a better idea; I suppose I was trying to be nice. All I really want is to never get stuck behind Eric on a long route.

Eric, your concepts are grounded in a good place. It seems as if.you really want to understand and master these concepts.

I don't want to treat you with contempt as other have.

I will state. That it will complicate your systems immensely to have this concept in mind in all of the time.

Remember rapping, is body weight. No one else's after Todd's (other problems there.) belay loop has blown ever.

If you check your gear and it passes even a cursory visual inspection, it's fine.

If you really want a redundant system in the belay loop put another one on or buy one with two.

Even then

You are still on one buckle to your waist, one Karabiner to the device, one rap device, one rope you are rapping on.

The failure of any of these points is fatal. We don't worry about these points failing?

Unless you are using the rope access metric for climbing safety you will never escape this paradigm in single rope systems.
Simply put, this will not be what kills you. Your lanyard of choice is not the problem

Eric Moss wrote:I'm confused about how you're getting to a count of five biners with my setup. I count three. Note that it's only meant to have one attachment point in tether mode, unlike yours with two.

I counted up to 5 because I was assuming that you would want some way of tethering yourself to your anchor while you set up your rappel and have that tether be redundant. So that would put 2 connecting it to your harness, 2 connecting you to the anchor, and another one for your rappel device. Having a way to clip to the anchor is not strictly a sport thing, every multi-pitch I have done that did not have a walk off had ledges small enough at the rap stations that I would want to clip in while moving the rope and setting up the next rap, if they had ledges at all. If you are only setting up your rappels on large enough ledges that you are comfortable with no clipping in then that is not necessary, but don't expect every climb you do to offer that luxury.

While the last tether you posted is better and I would be perfectly fine with using it, if you are wanting it to be redundant then it does not fit the bill. If something would cause the sling between your harness and the knot where the rappel biner is to break (such as where the bar tacks are) then I would not trust the girth hitch to hold. But it is very unlikely that anything would cause that section to fail without causing you several other problems that it wouldn't make a difference (imagine how a rock would have to hit you while you are rappelling in order to cut that since it would be vertical...). Just make sure your sling isn't one of those that only got a tape splice from BD.

Eric Moss wrote: He's using a redundant rappel extension! Omg, what a noob! Doesn't he know that risk and adrenaline is what climbing is all about?

Well yes and no... He is using what is quite a common method of rappel extension. a single sling and tether. The clip back of the tether is redundant but it is hardly the key point of the setup.

I use an identical setup on the rare occasion I extend my rappel. Whether I clip back my tether to my belay loop or a gear loop is largely irrelevant IMO.

Though if one was going to critique things, he failed to test load the rappel device before undoing his tether. Testing your lowering method before removing your safety would save at least half a dozen lives each year.

Brady3 wrote: I counted up to 5 because I was assuming that you would want some way of tethering yourself to your anchor while you set up your rappel and have that tether be redundant. So that would put 2 connecting it to your harness, 2 connecting you to the anchor, and another one for your rappel device. Having a way to clip to the anchor is not strictly a sport thing, every multi-pitch I have done that did not have a walk off had ledges small enough at the rap stations that I would want to clip in while moving the rope and setting up the next rap, if they had ledges at all. If you are only setting up your rappels on large enough ledges that you are comfortable with no clipping in then that is not necessary, but don't expect every climb you do to offer that luxury. While the last tether you posted is better and I would be perfectly fine with using it, if you are wanting it to be redundant then it does not fit the bill. If something would cause the sling between your harness and the knot where the rappel biner is to break (such as where the bar tacks are) then I would not trust the girth hitch to hold. But it is very unlikely that anything would cause that section to fail without causing you several other problems that it wouldn't make a difference (imagine how a rock would have to hit you while you are rappelling in order to cut that since it would be vertical...). Just make sure your sling isn't one of those that only got a tape splice from BD.

From my understanding, a tether doesn't need to be redundant. I was planning on using my setup in exactly the same way as in the AMGA video.

patto wrote: Well yes and no... He is using what is quite a common method of rappel extension. a single sling and tether. The clip back of the tether is redundant but it is hardly the key point of the setup. I use an identical setup on the rare occasion I extend my rappel. Whether I clip back my tether to my belay loop or a gear loop is largely irrelevant IMO. Though if one was going to critique things, he failed to test load the rappel device before undoing his tether. Testing your lowering method before removing your safety would save at least half a dozen lives each year.

Good point. I only thought redundancy was was the key point because they mentioned redundancy specifically in the manual, but it could just be a bonus to the material saving measure of combining tether and rappel extension in one.

Thanks.