New Products For The USA

Lots of American climbers are stupid.

Imagine what the panty twisting party will think when they see a lower off or ramshorn. A brick will be shit.

That's exactly the issue. I was looking at updating hardware at a spot that's popular for the fresh out the gym crowd. I posted a picture of a ramshorn on a local fb group and asked what the newer climbers would do if they found this at the anchor, they all said they would rappel off it (then someone argues with me that you should always rappel off everything, even draws intended to lower off, we really are stupid in America). Totally defeats the purpose of a replaceable lower off. Although it would certainly stop endless top roping through the lower off point :)

Jim with your biners coming in so much lower than fixe dracos, I do think there is a market for them here.

Nick Drake wrote:Lots of American climbers are stupid. Imagine what the panty twisting party will think when they see a lower off or ramshorn. A brick will be shit. That's exactly the issue. I was looking at updating hardware at a spot that's popular for the fresh out the gym crowd. I posted a picture of a ramshorn on a local fb group and asked what the newer climbers would do if they found this at the anchor, they all said they would rappel off it (then someone argues with me that you should always rappel off everything, even draws intended to lower off, we really are stupid in America). Totally defeats the purpose of a replaceable lower off. Although it would certainly stop endless top roping through the lower off point :) Jim with your biners coming in so much lower than fixe dracos, I do think there is a market for them here.

I don't see your point. As long as no one said something like "What is that POS wire... Thread the rope directly through the bolt or hangar and rap". In other words, as long as people are smart enough to know how to drop the rope into the ramshorn then what's the problem?

The people who said they would rap off would probably rap off of just about any hardware you installed. So installing ramshorns isn't going to cause an increase in rapping accidents. In fact it could decrease them, since it is a simpler procedure to rap from a ramshorn. Furthermore, ramshorns would certainly decrease lowering/cleaning accidents, since the climber doesn't have to untie/thread/retie.

Once ramshorns start showing up at more crags, people will eventually figure out they are OK to lower off of.

cyclestupor wrote: I don't see your point. As long as no one said something like "What is that POS wire... Thread the rope directly through the bolt or hangar and rap". In other words, as long as people are smart enough to know how to drop the rope into the ramshorn then what's the problem? The people who said they would rap off would probably rap off of just about any hardware you installed. So installing ramshorns isn't going to cause an increase in rapping accidents. In fact it could decrease them, since it is a simpler procedure to rap from a ramshorn. Furthermore, ramshorns would certainly decrease lowering/cleaning accidents, since the climber doesn't have to untie/thread/retie. Once ramshorns start showing up at more crags, people will eventually figure out they are OK to lower off of.

I totally agree with you. My goal was to equip routes for lowering which currently just have chains (not even rings) on them. If the ram horns aren't actually used to lower from then is it worth spending the money on additional hardware?
I considered fixe dracos biners because it would be easier for people to understand, but they are cost prohibitive.

Jim: would your distributor provide any discounts for local climbing organizations? Our LCO is working with NYS Parks to open climbing in one of their parks. We currently use Wave Bolts and outfit each top anchor with 2 SS bolts, links, chains and rap rings. Your twisted glue-ins coupled with an inline chain and rams horn looks to be a good alternative.

cyclestupor wrote: I don't see your point. As long as no one said something like "What is that POS wire... Thread the rope directly through the bolt or hangar and rap". In other words, as long as people are smart enough to know how to drop the rope into the ramshorn then what's the problem? The people who said they would rap off would probably rap off of just about any hardware you installed. So installing ramshorns isn't going to cause an increase in rapping accidents. In fact it could decrease them, since it is a simpler procedure to rap from a ramshorn. Furthermore, ramshorns would certainly decrease lowering/cleaning accidents, since the climber doesn't have to untie/thread/retie. Once ramshorns start showing up at more crags, people will eventually figure out they are OK to lower off of.

I don´t mind challenges but persuading American climbers that lowering is the preferred option against rapping is going to be more than I´m willing to take on!
Basically all the instructional books and organisations will first have to change, in the meantime climbers will just learn for themselves which is better. New climbers who learnt the rapping mantra will notice that it doesn´t work on the hard routes they aspire to, they will read about accidents from mis-communication, discover that people are dying because they re-tie the knot wrong when they thread through and so on, gradually the climbing world will change over to clip-ins but telling them to change ain´t going to be easy.

And!!!! I offer products to cover both requirements and the more chains and rings up there the more I sell, a few nice Vee chainsets with rings gives me more profit than a couple of ramshorns so I only inform people what the adavantages and disadvantages are of the various systems. Trying to convert people from firmly held beliefs only annoys them anyway!

TheIceManCometh wrote:Jim: would your distributor provide any discounts for local climbing organizations? Our LCO is working with NYS Parks to open climbing in one of their parks. We currently use Wave Bolts and outfit each top anchor with 2 SS bolts, links, chains and rap rings. Your twisted glue-ins coupled with an inline chain and rams horn looks to be a good alternative.

The pricing and discount structure is naturally their affair not mine (it´s illegal for me to impose pricing conditions on a retailer) but I´d expect we´ll work out something.

Jim Titt wrote: it´s illegal for me to impose pricing conditions on a retailer

That's common in the USA and certainly not illegal. Many retail industries operate on Minimum Advertised Price. This is a requirement that states retailers are not authorized to sell a product for less than this value in an effort to prevent huge companies from dwarfing little guys. For the most part it's not effective on the Internet as companies like Amazon and eBay will sell for whatever price they want regardless of what manufacturers say, but physical stores typically are required to abide by MAP or risk losing the authority to sell a specific brand. It's mostly stupid because there are a million ways to bypass the rule such as having a "sale", but none the less it exists.

20 kN wrote: That's common in the USA and certainly not illegal. Many retail industries operate on Minimum Advertised Price. This is a requirement that states retailers are not authorized to sell a product for less than this value in an effort to prevent huge companies from dwarfing little guys. For the most part it's not effective on the Internet as companies like Amazon and eBay will sell for whatever price they want regardless of what manufacturers say, but physical stores typically are required to abide by MAP or risk losing the authority to sell a specific brand. It's mostly stupid because there are a million ways to bypass the rule such as having a "sale", but none the less it exists.

Right, I´m not familiar with US consumer law. For us the supplier can give a Recommended Retail Price but certainly isn´t allowed to enforce it in any way to anyone who wants to discount. What happens for us dealing with the USA who knows?
Anyway that´s not how we do business, a sole importer can´t undercut anyone and if he´s too greedy then he does no business anyway.
The real hassle is if one country is getting a better deal from the manufacturer because of their economy and starts selling into another country where prices are higher, that´s a common problem with climbing gear.

20 kN wrote: That's common in the USA and certainly not illegal. Many retail industries operate on Minimum Advertised Price. This is a requirement that states retailers are not authorized to sell a product for less than this value in an effort to prevent huge companies from dwarfing little guys. For the most part it's not effective on the Internet as companies like Amazon and eBay will sell for whatever price they want regardless of what manufacturers say, but physical stores typically are required to abide by MAP or risk losing the authority to sell a specific brand. It's mostly stupid because there are a million ways to bypass the rule such as having a "sale", but none the less it exists.

While it's common in a lot of industries in the US, you're oversimplifying a bit by saying it's "certainly not illegal." Manufacturers can set price floors in many cases, but the legality is determined by examining the effect of that action on competition.

Federally, the standards have become relaxed, but some state laws still bar price floors. New York, Texas and California are some examples.

Bobby Possumcods wrote: If you can make a product that competes with this Fixe anchor and have it priced less, then you will have absolutely no problem selling. In fact, I'm in need of about 40 at the moment and would love to have a lower cost option. These are hands down the best anchors for use with mechanical bolts available here.

They work fine for belay stations on multipitch routes (which is their intended purpose), but they are absolute crap for loweroffs on single pitch routes. You need an anchor that meets at a single point, not two points separate from each other, or else lowering off will twist your rope to absolute crap.

20 kN wrote: They work fine for belay stations on multipitch routes (which is their intended purpose), but they are absolute crap for loweroffs on single pitch routes. You need an anchor that meets at a single point, not two points separate from each other, or else lowering off will twist your rope to absolute crap.

Agree 100% - The Single ring Fixes in the standard US horizontal setup are terrible for single pitch stuff as they twist the rope horribly. I'm not even a fan of them for multi pitch as they don't have enough room for multiple biners and the rope if rapping. They just get really cramped.

If you MUST use the single rings, try and use them vertically in the "French Style" - no twist and wears on only one ring so less cost when replacement needed.



Jim does make stuff similar to what you want (although I'd argue he also makes stuff that's BETTER eg Pigtails)



Better

Seems to fit in here

supertopo.com/climbers-foru…

It´s unlikely we will ever produce an anchor like that at a budget price, we don´t like or produce plate hangers for a number of reasons so only make rod hangers. Plate hangers damage karabiners, often have corrosion issues and you can´t directly thread them.. Our rings have the weld polished out so they can actually turn in use and don´t just hang up and wear in one spot so they are larger diameter so we can clean out the weld, the polishing is expensive but quality always is.
For rap stations on multi-pitch we produce the one illustrated below and for sport routes the ramshorn is the way to go. Drop-in and lower, easy to replace, don´t twist the rope and cheaper than the anchor you show.

Bobby Possumcods wrote: If you can make a product that competes with this Fixe anchor and have it priced less, then you will have absolutely no problem selling. In fact, I'm in need of about 40 at the moment and would love to have a lower cost option. These are hands down the best anchors for use with mechanical bolts available here.

I'm sure that Jim is well aware of how badly these anchors suck and won't be supplying them here for that reason. Please stop installing these as they are just horrible.

Bobby Possumcods wrote:I just don't ever see the French style down here in the southeast. It's either horizontal rings/quick links at most trad heavy places, or chains/steel draws or cold shuts at the popular sport crags. I'll give the French style a try soon.

People who install horizontal rings suck. One ring and a chain in vertical orientation is awesome. Double rings (or double rapid link$) is also fine.

Don't be the douche that twisted my rope!!!

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote: People who install horizontal rings suck. One ring and a chain in vertical orientation is awesome. Double rings (or double rapid link$) is also fine. Don't be the douche that twisted my rope!!!

Seriously, I agree with everything said here.

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote: People who install horizontal rings suck. One ring and a chain in vertical orientation is awesome. Double rings (or double rapid link$) is also fine. Don't be the douche that twisted my rope!!!

Unless it was one person putting up a dozen+ of sport routes over a relatively short period of time in the same area - then the burden is, IMHO, on the complainers to upgrade the anchors. I feel like climbers should start equipping Ten Sleep anchors with proper lower-off hardware.

doligo wrote: Unless it was one person putting up a dozen+ of sport routes over a relatively short period of time in the same area - then the burden is, IMHO, on the complainers to upgrade the anchors.

And I do!! The problem is that when travelling, I'm not going to whip out new chains for every single route.

My local area is slowly getting upgraded and soon enough will start quickly getting those upgrades since I've finally finished school. I can't do everything though and I've grown to resent the short-sighted developers in this area who left so many bad or just plain stupid anchors in the area.

It really pisses me off. These are 5-10 year old anchors with no rust and no wear. If they'd done a good job to start, it wouldn't have cost them any more and I wouldn't have to fix anything. I have zero respect for that shit.

Yeah, I know you do. You and missus need to come clip some bolts here!

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote: It really pisses me off. These are 5-10 year old anchors with no rust and no wear. If they'd done a good job to start, it wouldn't have cost them any more and I wouldn't have to fix anything. I have zero respect for that shit.

This, I'm perfectly happy to upgrade OLD anchors that need it, but it's so annoying when developers are putting up new routes with annoying side by side fixe rings, especially in sport areas, and yes, it does happen way too frequently.