To Pass or Not To Pass (and where to do it) This Is The Question

Josh Janes wrote:Noobs don't know what they're doing and will usually let experienced climbers pass. Experienced climbers understand that sometimes people can climb faster than them and are typically tolerant of a well-executed pass. The problem is with all the climbers in the middle who think they know what they're doing but really don't. Their fears or egos get in the way even more than other parties on the same route. If you don't let a competent, faster party pass you without a good reason you are branding yourself inexperienced and probably a jerk. That said, there are compelling reasons not to let someone pass (for example loose rock, imminent weather or darkness, or complex or dangerous climbing). I experience this all the time while guiding in Red Rocks - Epinephrine being perhaps the most obvious example. The "typical" climber on this route is intimidated and under stress. Passing sometimes goes smoothly and sometimes not so much. Once I had a guy freak out at me for passing him during the walk to the base (!) ...sorry if you're lost in the dark and I hike faster than you buddy! On several occasions I've had people show up just after me and they've asked flat out if they could pass without even seeing us climb... Though I find this presumptuous I always reply "Absolutely! If you can demonstrate competence and keep up with us I'll let you go by in a pitch or two." On a few rare occasions I've had a party offer to let me go first without even asking - this is a delight and a sure fire way to create good will! This is just my opinion but I believe that neither slow parties nor fast parties are out there "trying" to ruin someone else's day. The things that happen are stress- and emotion-driven. And while it is always best to be as positive and polite as possible, if the other party is not acting rationally you ultimately have to treat them like any other objective hazard in climbing: That might mean bailing to a different route, taking a breather and letting someone pass, or perhaps even passing without expressed permission. Every situation is unique and to my knowledge there are no unbreakable rules to govern this issue.

QTF! Quoted for Truth, my friend. I think that's a perfect post and I'll leave this conversation at that.

Dan Africk wrote:It seems there is a certain arrogance people have, where if they are faster or better climbers they should get priority.

I'm have not seen this arrogance nor an expectation of priority. But nor is the rock or a cliff owned by anybody. Nobody has priority. Though basic common sense safety says that if somebody is leading a pitch then don't interfere with their lead. Though unless there is loose rock then passing seconds can often be done safely.

In general I climb fast, so if anything I'm usually passing. Normally I won't start up short multi-pitches behind another group, I'll pick another climb. For longer multi-pitches I'll normally figure out a good point to pass. Occasionally though I might have a slow climber in tow so I'll just queue up behind and trundle behind the group ahead...

I have been passed by soloing people without issues. I got passed by soloers on Matthes Crest who then pulled out a rope for the crux pitch... I was happy to chill and wait. Basic politeness from all sides goes a long way.

Dan Africk wrote:Thinking you have the right to pass any party you deem as too slow is really the epitome of arrogance or acting like you 'own the rock'. No one likes waiting, but deal with it and wait your turn like a respectful adult.

The irony is thick here. Nobody owns the rock. Which is why others DO have the 'right' to pass slow parties. The key caveat is to not endanger them and just general politeness.

No offense intended, but three days ago Dan, a Brooklyn-based Gunks climber, led the 140' long Classic - his first 5.7. I think it is safe to conclude his opinions on this matter solidly prove my points about experience informing attitudes on passing. Dan's argument hinges on both an ironically, but understandably, biased view of "owning the rock" and also the principle of "patiently waiting your turn" which, while essential to the smooth functioning of society in NYC, has far less bearing on the smooth functioning of multiple parties climbing on long routes out west.

PS: This is not a judgement on Brooklyn-based Gunks climbers - I myself have been one.

Being a little older and hopefully wiser, I prefer to either be first on the route or go climb something else. Too many close calls over the years with parties above dropping stuff, and almost being killed when a party above me pulled off a microwave size block that just missed me at a hanging belay on a popular route. Plus I really don't have the patience for being stuck behind slow parties and don't like being a dick and ruining somebodies day by riding their ass and negotiating a pass. Some routes its not big deal others have very little options, some routes its expected to let faster parties pass like Nose in a day parties vs. wall style parties.

At a place like the Hulk, lots of good routes in the same grade, why not climb something else. Just because its in the Supertopo does not mean the other routes next to it are not just as good. And if your such a strong, fast climber why not go climb something harder, usually less crowds on the harder routes.

Ego tends to be the issue.

i completely agree w/josh 100%. even right down to the epinephrine example... and the passing a slowly hiking group example...

another example - starting up a route before the party who bivied at the base and didn't wake up in time, who then start yelling at you that they should get to go first. ughhh.

the only time i can see not wanting somebody to pass is if you have somebody directly in front of you creating a log jam. in this case, when somebody comes from behind and it bugging you about passing they look like gumbies.

when an experienced party doesn't have somebody directly ahead of them (ie slowing them down) and sees another party completely hauling ass up towards them, they set their belay as out-of-the-way as possible, and gives them a high five when they jet by. anything less and you are going to look like a total putz.

john2.71 wrote: WTF do climbing grades or where one lives have to do with it? What have you done that is so spectacularly earth shattering? Where do you live that makes your opinions more important? Perhaps the experienced climbers shouldn't even be on the same routes as the less experienced, slower climbers; experienced climbers should be pushing their limits, not cruising up popular moderates several grades below their ability. Perhaps the experienced climbers who get on popular, easier routes and are surprised to find a slower party ahead of them aren't so experienced after all. Dan is a nice guy. He did nothing to deserve your BS.

i knew when i clicked on your profile you would be a 5.6 climber. i feel like nastrodamus sometimes.

This topic reminded me of an Enormocast episode I listened to awhile back. Episode 20: Listener Mail Volume 1. It touches on the same issues being discussed. Take a look at the comments section too. At the end of the day, it's not black and white. Each scenario needs to be considered uniquely, but I think we can all agree that it comes down to being considerate of each other and the experience that we are all trying to have. Don't be a jerk. Have a friendly discussion, agree on the best course of action, be patient and respectful.

I had a recent situation on Epinephrine that left me with a bad taste. We were the party that arrived behind another party just getting started. We were having great conversation with them while we waited. They talked about how even though they were a party of three they would be fast, especially in the chimneys since one of them had been on the climb multiple times. Sweet! we thought. Then began the hang on the first bolt of the first pitch. We started getting a little nervous so asked if they would be okay if we took one of the alternatives to hop in front. They reassured us again that they'll get moving fast once they get past this. We waited...I started climbing once the leader had left off for the 2nd pitch...I ended up waiting below them on the slab before being able to move up to the belay. The chimneys were much the same...we waited on average 20 to 30 mins at each belay before proceeding. Taking little catnaps along the way. We started the conversation about us passing at the large ledge...the quintessential best possible passing situation. I mentioned that I had a flight to catch that evening and they seemed totally open to the pass. I get to the big ledge to notice that the leader had just started up the pitch. Then things get weird...they asked that I wait to clip into the bolts to belay my buddy up. Then they start ignoring our conversation to talk about passing (not talking to us). I suggest that I can link the next two pitches and we'll be on our merry way...cost them little time at all since they were still figuring out their belay change over. They shutdown and were having nothing to do with it. I didn't have the balls to just pass regardless and didn't feel the need to meet jerk with jerk. So we waited and waited. At the end of the day it probably slowed us down by about 4 hours. I just barely made my flight and c'est la vie. The whole thing that put me off was the complete disregard for having the discussion and being open to options. I firmly believe both parties would have had an even better experience if we worked together to pass...less stress on them and better flow for us. But again, these are the differences of opinion that can happen out there. At the end of the day just be open minded and courteous.

His point was the gunks doesn't have long routes like out west. There are 3 four pitch routes on MP. The OP route is 12 ish pitches. The gunks is mostly 2-3 pitch climbing, passing is kind of pointless, just go climb something else or wait to start up. So what does he know about passing when it matters (in the western mountains where 30 minutes means back at the car or caught in a lightening storm above tree line).

I went to climb Playing Hookey with a buddy last year and it was crowded. 2 parties on the wall, 1 at the base. You are not going to be able to easily pass or want to wait in that situation (it is all sport). There is a route right next to it, Black Gold, so we did that and passed everyone, rapping while the first party was on pitch 4. It is about being smart on your objectives and knowing when to change them sometimes. It was raining on the hike out...

This is why climbing getting more popular isn't necessarily a good thing. I avoid climbing long classics on Saturdays if possible. I had a recentl experience in red rocks, simul climbing black Orpheus to approach levitation 29. We passed 2 parties without event and were on the 2nd to last pitch when the follower of the last party allowed us to climb through. As I was getting to the final anchor before a slabby top out, the leader of this party was pissed. I thanked him for his follower allowing us to pass, to which he remarked "I'm sure you didn't give her an option". He asked me to wait at the belay if I was willing to wait, so we did. I took the next few minutes diffusing the situation and talking with him, telling him our plans for the day and why we had started so late. By the time my partner arrived, his attitude had improved and he was happy to let us continue.

The initial attitude was absolutely you won't pass us. Pride and being uncomfortable with the situation. If you take the extra time to talk and be respectful, things usually go well. If you are climbing stuff easier than 5.9, expect to be passing someone who doesn't like it. Have a useful attitude, and a meaningful conversation.

On another note, if you're being passed and you think you are a fast climber, you should be psyched for this party. Maybe you can learn something from them as they go by. We're all out there to have fun,

Mike Mellenthin wrote:Saying you should _never_ pass someone on Red Dihedral after P4 is stupid as heck. It's blocky and wanders all over for like 8 (?) more guidebook pitches and you wouldn't be in anyone's way.

I think the comments about not passing were about pitch 4 only. Agree that after that pitch you can go anyway you want linking 5 and 6 and/or going around the slower party; all that sacrificing only 5-10 minutes of your time (which was the reason to start this thread).

Since it is a story time: few years back I was climbing with a buddy of mine on El Cap's East Buttress (one of my first trad leads). A faster party (5.12 guy + 5.8 girl) caught up with us after the 3rd pitch, where the big ledge is. Me and my buddy already decided to let pass anyone who catches with us, but these guys did not ask, sneaking out from around the corner and while trying to go around us (?) their leader crossed our rope diagonally with minimal protection. So not only our ropes were rubbing against each other, but also in a case of their leader or the follower's fall they would take us with them (pretty much the same scenario in case of my buddy's fall, no swing though). The result of this operation - we could still get to the next belay before them, but decided to let them pass anyway. Should we say something? Probably, but the guy knew exactly what he was doing. The only thing I could say to their defense - it is possible they felt threatened, as my friend dropped a piece of salami on them. We got passed by another party, but these guys talked to us first and then went around anyway; actually it was pretty impressive to watch the guy flying (as in moving fast) on the pitch 6 OW, while we climbed the face.

john2.71 wrote:...the smug prick admins on MP won't feel so bruised and need to boost their egos by shitting on other climbers abilities. I guess it didn't work. What a wonderful "community", where the admins are a-holes to the contributors, posting their climbing grades as a way to invalidate their contributions.

Priceless! Thanks for that post John - I LOL'd! I'm not being smug nor am I "shitting on" anyone (though I freely acknowledge that I can be a prick), but I appreciate you coming to the defense of Dan.

I called attention to Dan's location and climbing level only as a means to point out his experience. At least based on his profile, he's only climbed at three areas ever (the Gunks, the New, and some more obscure location in NH). There's absolutely nothing wrong with this. The problem I have is with him making uninformed statements about passing on routes the likes of which he has never been on and has no clue about. It sounds like he's been in a situation once at the Gunks where someone built an anchor near him but this is only distantly relevant to passing on routes like the Red Dihedral.

Am I shitting on him? No. Are his assertions about this topic credible? No.

And the idea that more experienced parties shouldn't be climbing easier routes (as if moderate classics should be reserved for novices?) is ludicrous. I can think of many reasons why an experienced climber should be on a moderate classic - not the least of which being the awesome climbing.

When I encounter more experienced climbers I don't get into a turf war with them - instead I ask questions or observe and try to soak in as much as I can. It's amazing what I've learned by doing so. That guy I passed on the way to Epi did exactly that: Once we passed him he was then able to follow us to the base without getting lost further and, realizing I was familiar with the route, he apologized and then queried me for beta which I was happy to provide. Had I not passed when he freaked out on the approach, we would have been up his butt all day long. Instead, he had solid beta and a few useful tricks, we were all much happier and much less stressed, and, once climbing, we never overlapped again.

Mike gets it. Additionally I'd propose that the ego BS that creates problems in climbing is more driven by the mindset that compels people to make multiple posts about the rulz of passing yet have never climbed a route longer than two pitches, harder than 5.7, in the alpine, on granite, anywhere outside of NY, WV, or NH, etc... And even more so by their wacky friends who rage on those who call them out on it(!?!?).

This has nothing to do with Brooklyn (which is a wonderful place to live) or the Gunks (which is a great place to climb) or 5.7 (of which there are thousands of amazing routes to climb).

Josh Janes wrote:No offense intended, but three days ago Dan, a Brooklyn-based Gunks climber, led the 140' long Classic

Josh Janes wrote:I called attention to Dan's location and climbing level only as a means to point out his experience. At least based on his profile, he's only climbed at three areas ever (the Gunks, the New, and some more obscure location in NH). There's absolutely nothing wrong with this. The problem I have is with him making uninformed statements about passing on routes the likes of which he has never been on and has no clue about. ... Am I shitting on him? No. Are his assertions about this topic credible? No.

I'm glad you've taken such an interest in my climbing! Yes, I'm a 5.6 Gunks climber from Brooklyn, and I'm quite happy with all of those things. You're incorrect about the areas and grades I've climbed, but you're right that I don't have experience with long routes. I've been leading multipitch climbs for 3 years, but the longest I've done is a 4-pitch route in the Adirondacks.

My climbing experience may be relevant to this discussion, but I disagree that it invalidates my opinion on the topic. The Gunks is crowded with climbers of all levels, and we share routes, belay ledges, anchors, even rappel ropes with other parties all the time. Passing does sometimes make sense, and I've let people pass me plenty of times. I don't recall any problems off the top of my head, but I probably wouldn't remember such things unless it was very recent or a really egregious incident.

Anyway my opinion is based on more fundamental views of courtesy and safety. I don't think people have the right to impinge on the safety or interfere in any way with climbers who are ahead of them on the same route. Of course views on safety and what people are comfortable with varies widely among climbers, and yes climbing ability / grade is a factor in this- A pitch that an 5.10 climber would consider so easy they might even free-solo it, could make a 5.6 climber crap their pants.. It would be considerate to think about the mindset of someone at a lower climbing level and how they might feel about the complication of another party crowding them when they're already pushing their limits.

Climbing ability aside, people simply have different views of what they consider 'safe', and how much risk they are willing to tolerate. One of the wonderful things about climbing (and outdoor sports in general) is that you get to be in control of what level of risk you undertake, and how you deal with it- what routes you choose, how you protect them, your anchor techniques, etc.. When it comes to passing, you may have very different views on whether it is safe to do so, and I don't think it's right to impose your view on someone else- if they think you are endangering them, they will be very rightfully upset. They didn't force you to climb below them, but you are forcing them to be below you and potentially at risk if you pass against their wishes. And if you think waiting puts you in danger of changing weather, you are endangering them even more if you make a slow party further delayed..

To me it only makes sense, as a matter of decency and practicality, that once someone is climbing a route, it's up to them if they are comfortable letting you climb above them. We all have to share the rock, and to me that means everyone has equal rights to climb routes, whether they are fast or slow, without being harassed or pressured by other climbers. And since there's no system of reserving routes like you would for say a campsite (thankfully!), that means that the first party there gets to climb it, and the next one waits their turn. I'm all for respectful communication, and if you can convince the climbers in front to let you pass without pressuring them, that's fine.

But I realize I'm beating a dead horse here, some of us just fundamentally disagree, and I don't think I'll change your minds. On the bright side, at least we all seem to agree that respectful communication is a good thing..

As a newer trad climber, I've never passed or been passed. But I have a hypothetical question. What happens when a party is slow and they know it, and want to let a faster party pass. But they also see a third party below that might also want to pass. How many faster parties do they let pass, especially if they know they are already pressed for time to make the summit? Maybe this is rare and therefore a moot point?

john2.71 wrote: More like 5.3. I put 5.6 my profile so the smug prick admins on MP won't feel so bruised and need to boost their egos by shitting on other climbers abilities. I guess it didn't work. What a wonderful "community", where the admins are a-holes to the contributors, posting their climbing grades as a way to invalidate their contributions.

it's not really your ability that i am crapping on...

there is a difference between being inexperienced / not climbing hard and being a total putz. an inexperienced, yet non-gumby climber would think "hmmmm i can barely lead 5.7 single pitch, maybe trying to drag my non-climbing bros up an 8 pitch 5.7 mega-classic as a party of 3, hauling 2 backpacks, on labor day weekend, and declare to the world that none shall pass might not be a great idea." that is what a putz would do.

Jim Turner wrote:As a newer trad climber, I've never passed or been passed. But I have a hypothetical question. What happens when a party is slow and they know it, and want to let a faster party pass. But they also see a third party below that might also want to pass. How many faster parties do they let pass, especially if they know they are already pressed for time to make the summit? Maybe this is rare and therefore a moot point?

that's a tough question and definitely not a rare scenario. it is kind of like driving a slower car in the mountains with traffic. sometimes there are a few slow lanes you can duck into, etc, and try to time it such that you don't lose too much momentum.

one thing that makes a big difference is scheduling. if you know that a longer classic route is going to be at you and your partner's limit, you really should make an effort to schedule the route during non-peak times. it makes doing these types of routes a lot more enjoyable and a lot less stressful.

john2.71 wrote: WTF do climbing grades or where one lives have to do with it?

A fair bit actually. As Josh adequately explained.

john2.71 wrote:Perhaps the experienced climbers shouldn't even be on the same routes as the less experienced, slower climbers; experienced climbers should be pushing their limits, not cruising up popular moderates several grades below their ability.

What the actual fuck!?

So now experienced climbers aren't allowed to climb routes below their peak ability!? Seriously? Comments like are supporting Josh's comments.

When you are doing 8+ pitches on a remote cliff that is not the occasion for a poorer climber to be struggling up a easy 5.6 pitch.

john2.71 wrote:Perhaps the experienced climbers who get on popular, easier routes and are surprised to find a slower party ahead of them aren't so experienced after all. Dan is a nice guy. He did nothing to deserve your BS.

I wouldn't be surprised. But I'll deal with that situation in a safe and sensible manner.

Cathedral peak is a popular easy route. I mentioned it earlier and described how I passed 11 people by doing a variant. Meanwhile several parties had to bail before the sunset as they were either too slow or being bottlenecked by other sow climbers.

3 pages and this can be summed up by the life moto, "Don't be a dick."

Ever notice how many dumbass drivers there are on the road?

john2.71 wrote: It's not a dick move to climb something you want to climb. Irrespective of your climbing level or whether you brought your bro or a backpack or what day of the week it is. You know, I've never experienced any such jerks like you MP guys on the rock. In real life, climbers who are more experienced than I am have always been helpful, not arrogant or entitled. They offer encouragement, not discouragement. They are generous with their time and resources, not selfish or territorial about routes. They reassess and adapt their plans if they encounter less capable parties, instead of expecting the less capable party to cater to them.

So here's the deal. It's not a dick move to climb something you want to climb. It's not even a dick move to climb something vastly beyond your ability. That's climbing.

The dick move is when this screws up other parties. If you allow people to pass as you're fiddling with your experimental puffer fish pro, it's cool. If you insist the route is yours and everyone beneath you must go your speed, that's a problem.

This goes for learning to aid, learning to climb fast, bringing a big group, or just climbing slow. You've got allow other parties to move at their own speed too.

Funny story. Several years ago I was climbing Half Dome RRNF. I was wearing baby blue spandex with pink squiggles and a wife beater. We were having a fantastic day and near the top of the chimney I caught a party above us. The leader said that when he first saw me in those spandex he was really hoping I wasn't fat. Then he said that as we got closer he figured I wasn't or I'd be moving slower. We laughed. We gave them back some slings they'd spaced at a belay, and everyone had a good day.

Moral of the story, invest in spandex.