New Products For The USA

Morgan Patterson wrote: thought we agree that the quicklinks and mussy hooks didnt need to be SS (as GC is so unlikely to be an issue) so why spend the extra dough or even consider SS qlinks/mussy etc?

I totally agree. I just know that Jim doesn't produce anything in plated steel, and in wetter areas where uniform corrosion is a problem, going all stainless (if reasonably priced) would be good.

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Morgan Patterson wrote: thought we agree that the quicklinks and mussy hooks didnt need to be SS (as GC is so unlikely to be an issue) so why spend the extra dough or even consider SS qlinks/mussy etc?

Well that´s part of the big picture really, over here there aren´t that many really dry places and many of them would be near the sea anyway. Mostly Europe jst stopped non-stainless completely because only 304 and up was permitted in the 1996 European Standard. that was changed later to allow any material but we´d all got used to just stainless by then.
Realistically if I was bolting in Arizona I probably wouldn´t bother with stainless either especially for stuff which can and will be changed out anyway.
Also nobody uses Mussy hooks over here so I´d be sourcing a product only for the US market and you could probably source them locally cheaper anyway. This is a problem with selling generic products, I have to do the testing and certification and then anyone else with a bit of initiative can go and buy them elswhere.

John Wilder wrote:My inclination for rap setups is replaceable hardwear if at all possible. Setups that have the rap built into the hanger are just not ideal for maintenance at high traffic crags. At Red Rock Mussys last awhile, but we're about 7 years into our first round going up and the most popular routes are already in need of replacement. Those routes with links on them usually need replacement every couple of years.

For routes with glue-ins then the rap setups need to be replaceable especially in high traffic areas, some back-country obscurity which gets 5 ascents a year for sure not.
With bolt-ins they are by definition replaceable anyway, you just change the whole thing out.
The idea of the rap hanger is that when it´s worn you just change it out which is going to be cheaper than any other stainless alternative (nobody can compete on price against discount hardware store plated stuff).
The rotating problem is probably easiest solved by building them with a short 6mm stud sticking out the back so the installer only needs to make a dimple with the drill tip. Or American climbers learn to set them up French style which anyway is better.

Jim Titt wrote: Or American climbers learn to set them up French style which anyway is better.

I think this should be part of the plan. Yes, I know you'll need to accommodate our behind-the-times ways to some degree but part of the sales website should be dedicated to education on things like the Ramshorn and French Style anchors or the benefits of inline vs the all too popular Vee. It should really include best ways to setup TRs as well so people can learn that part as well.

Creating new demand for your (better) products will involve teaching "us" why it's better than the old way.

I'm sold of course. Great to see you making the move here!

Jim Titt wrote: I have to do the testing and certification and then anyone else with a bit of initiative can go and buy them elswhere.

Ya that would be a major problem.

mattm wrote: Creating new demand for your (better) products will involve teaching "us" why it's better than the old way. I'm sold of course.

An important point I agree with!

Are you going to send over metric drill bits as well? They are hard to come by and really expensive in the USA. I bought a bunch of Petzl 10mm bolts, and now I have to have Euro friends bring me metric bits when they come over to visit.

Andrew Gram wrote:Are you going to send over metric drill bits as well? They are hard to come by and really expensive in the USA. I bought a bunch of Petzl 10mm bolts, and now I have to have Euro friends bring me metric bits when they come over to visit.

Thinking about it though all the stuff at the moment fits American size drill bits, if we send over wedge bolts then yes for sure. Depends what´s "expensive", a no-name 10mm one would probably run out at about $3 and a Bosch bit $4 by the time it´s got over the water. I´ve also got to check on the customs tarifs as it might be different for tool.
I have to get my inch size bits for testing sent over from the USA, they are Bosch and made in Germany but I still can´t buy them here!

Jim Titt wrote: Thinking about it though all the stuff at the moment fits American size drill bits, if we send over wedge bolts then yes for sure. Depends what´s "expensive", a no-name 10mm one would probably run out at about $3 and a Bosch bit $4 by the time it´s got over the water. I´ve also got to check on the customs tarifs as it might be different for tool. I have to get my inch size bits for testing sent over from the USA, they are Bosch and made in Germany but I still can´t buy them here!

Jim - I've sourced a lot of good SDS bits from a brand called "Rockhard" via Missouri Precision Tool Inc

Every Imperial bit size I've purchased says "Made in Germany" right on it. Perhaps another source?

Any chance of producing anything non-stainless? Where I'm from hardware wears out before corrosion gets bad enough to replace so nobody uses stainless. I'd definitely be interested in some plated ramshorns.

mattm wrote: Jim - I've sourced a lot of good SDS bits from a brand called "Rockhard" via Missouri Precision Tool Inc Every Imperial bit size I've purchased says "Made in Germany" right on it. Perhaps another source?

Well it´s not up to me what my distributor sells, I can source bits here and send them over but the quantities are a question since I´m not a tool discounter. To make ordering and raise the paperwork, do the customs stuff and send them out I need a fairly large quantity, like 100 or more to be worthwhile and whether there is enough demand is the question.
To supply for use with my own products it´s o.k as it helps sales so if someone orders 100 wedge bolts then adding a drill bit to the order is fine but just to supply for use with other companies products is another matter regarding minimum order size and shipping.

eli poss wrote:Any chance of producing anything non-stainless? Where I'm from hardware wears out before corrosion gets bad enough to replace so nobody uses stainless. I'd definitely be interested in some plated ramshorns.

Not a chance! The material cost reduction of going to steel is almost certainly going to be eaten up with post-bending heat treatment then plating both of which for small numbers is expensive. Just changing from stainless to steel without doing anytthing like plating would only reduce the price by maybe 10% anyway, most of the cost is labour.
Anyway I don´t work with plated stuff anyway, my goal is raisng quality not reducing prices!

kennoyce wrote: My main issue with it is that here in the US it will be installed as two of them side by side, and with the design as it is, will end up loosening the nut on the bolt very quickly with use.

Right, I made a shorter version so there´s less turning torque BUT it makes pushing a bight of rope through if there´s a biner already clipped in a real struggle with some ropes which is a downside if they are used as lower-offs.
Putting a small stud in the back works well though, doesn´t make a great difference in price and only needs a small dimple in the rock to be drilled.
Like this:-

Back view

I worked on making them with the bolt in the more usual place but this is also a hassle feeding the rope doubled through and going to cost a fair bit more, probably $1-1.50 as cutting the plate is complicated.

I second the stainless wire gates.

Those rap hangers look nice!

Stoked to see this hardware coming to the US.
Jim, any chance of your wedge anchors making it across the pond?

Nick Drake wrote:I second the stainless wire gates.

Well I thought about including them but it is an expensive way of providing a drop-in top anchor since you really should provide two and also need two quicklinks. They don´t sell very well to people equipping routes outdoors, mostly only to climbing gyms and sales to the US have previously been nearly non-existent. Climbers coming out of the gym like them but the people that pay for the equipment don´t!
We´ll discuss this.

Wedge bolts are another matter as we can supply tested, German manufactured bolts in 316ss at a pretty good price. Multi-piece bolts we can´t supply, not a popular item over here!

Lots of American climbers are stupid. We've already seen threads here about people bitching at second rate scary bolts when they were actually looking at one of yours or a wave. These morons don't know any better.

Imagine what the panty twisting party will think when they see a lower off or ramshorn. A brick will be shit.

I actually think these would be more readily accepted if a logo and rating were stamped on them. I hate the idea of making you do extra to appease the ignorant but we are talking about America here.

At any rate, I am excited for this. I've placed a lot of your glue ins and they're a fantastic product.

True dat. ^^^

Climbed at Rumney this weekend, and lowered off a few routes with ram horns. In my opinion these are the way of the future. Long lasting, easy to use, no twist or hangups with the rope. Lift the horn and clip draws behind when setting up to be seconded. No issues at all.

I don't want to sound condescending but if you can't figure out how to use rams horns you probably shouldn't be cleaning or leading the climb...

Here is a video as well if anyone needs a visual of how these work.
youtube.com/watch?v=a5FTe27…