Carabiners on Alpine Draws Rotating

Nope, never had it happen or seen it.

(By the way, my name is Rich (Richard), not Ron.)

rgold wrote:Nope, never had it happen or seen it. (By the way, my name is Rich (Richard), not Ron.)

Sh*t, sorry Rich, my bad.

this doesn't seem possible with a rope going through it.

Carabiner rotated half a full turn has the same strength.

rgold wrote:As I said before, the real problem is the rope somehow coming unclipped, and I don't think fixing the carabiner to the sling does anything significant about this---you have either have to use something that locks or two things that don't lock for this problem.

Agreed. Better to use small lockers or double up on placements if you are worried about the consequences of one piece unclipping/failing. I've used lockers and I often double up if I'm worried about a crux.

Broken biner, pulled gear AND and unclip. All in the same fall!
youtube.com/watch?v=nDSg0vl…
(More details here)

Mike Mu. wrote:^^^^^^^ Was that French rap music at the end of the video?

Aussie hip hop I believe. Don't know the name of the song though....

Dan Africk wrote:Anyway I'm going to take my best guess and use trial and error to find the right size- I just ordered these 36mm (1.4") ID silicone O-rings, worst case I'm only out $5: smile.amazon.com/dp/B00AH8D8E0 I'll post an update and photos once I see if these work (or not).

So the 36mm O-rings arrived and so far they're working great! I set them up this weekend and tried them out in the Gunks on Sunday, and they were an improvement over my previous clove hitches. Here's a few photos:

alpine draw with clove hitch, for comparison

Alpine draw with extra wrap ('round turn') and O-ring keeper. The non-death draw (gotta work on that name..)

Another view

What it looks like when the sling is clipped back through itself (as would be deadly in a 'death draw' with a keeper but no extra wrap). It's safe with this setup, it basically reverts to standard alpine draw. Note that in this setup, because of how close the stiff sewn section is to the gear-end carabiner, it's very obvious that the sling is clipped through itself again.

The shortened non-death alpine draw with keeper

Edit: I should add that the 36mm works well, the rubber has not slipped at all, but if I was ordering it again I would go slightly smaller, to make it a bit tighter- maybe 32? Just don't go any bigger, for this size sling anyway.

Another non-problem in search of an unnecessary solution.

Again to clarify, I only use this setup on my two trad draws with the revolvers (I have two more revolvers on quickdraws). For the rest, the keepers are more trouble than it's worth, for me anyway

Healyje wrote:Another non-problem in search of an unnecessary solution.

For most people this will never be a concern, and that's fine. For several people in this thread it is, and whether you view it as a 'problem' or optimization, some people want a keeper on their trad draws. And if I'm understanding J. Albers correctly, at least one person thinks the benefits are enough that it's worth the potential risks associated with 'death draws'. This is a solution to provide a keeper without the 'death draw' risk.

I don't really care if people think it's a good idea or not, I'm just happy I found a solution that works well for me and that is a big improvement over the clove hitches I've been using for a couple years. I'm sharing it in case anyone else finds it useful, because I would have really like to find this solution a year or two ago, and know what exactly what size to order.

It's still a case of misguided 'innovation' and generally faulty prioritization of the risks involved with trad climbing. As things worth worrying about go, this is an odd one at best.

Healyje wrote:It's still a case of misguided 'innovation' and generally faulty prioritization of the risks involved with trad climbing. As things worth worrying about go, this is an odd one at best.

How is it odd? How about you go tell Wayne Crill's family that the mode of gear failure that led to his unfortunate accident is an "odd" statistical anomaly. Or maybe you can tell them its a "non-problem".

You are confusing a low-probability event with a non-consequential event. Is the rope coming unclipped in a fall a low-probability event compared to some other objective dangers? Probably, because you don't here about this mode of failure often. But the consequences can be dire and Wayne's case is a perfect example. Carrying a locker setup or putting keepers on your draws has almost no drawbacks (provided you carry out the gigantically simple task of not double clipping a draw), and what you get in return is not being exposed to the accident that screwed Wayne up. Pretty easy trade off IMHO. But hey, considering your past almost uniformly condescending, yet often nonsensical posts here and over on the Taco, I guess I would find it odd if you had something useful and constructive to add.

The issue in Crill's accident was the jolting on the lower two pieces as the marginal RP and ballnut successively pulled. I've spend a lot of time over and fallen on a lot of strings of marginal gear and can state unequivocally that under the influence of such successive jolting anything can and will happen. I've had the exact same thing happen to me with a biner flying off not only the sling, but the rope as well.

The lesson I learned at the time is that when I'm run out above a string of marginal gear that whatever the last good piece was needs to have two opposed or one locking biner. Dicking around with rubber restraints / keepers is likewise going to be just as unreliable under the same jolting circumstances and only further stiffen the sling / carabiner connection with the result being it will be as or more likely to come unclipped from the rope as an unrestrained biner. So, yeah, it stays on the sling but that doesn't buy you a ton if it unclips from the rope. Want to actually mitigate the risk? Use a featherweight locker.

Again, this isn't about a biner randomly coming off the sling of some random placement you've fallen on - no, this is about the unpredictable results posed by the jolting of a piece or pieces pulling above solidly-placed lower pieces. This is also about what can happen when you fall and rip a succession of marginal (in Crill's case) or bad pro. It should also be noted that a third pulled piece was found on Crill's rope along with RP, ballnut and the two carabiners. That and the screamer (which I also use a lot) tells you Crill knew, marginally speaking, what he was getting into and was relatively comfortable doing it. I suspect he'd just never encountered a biner unclipping or flying off before and so didn't use lockers or opposing gates on the good pieces below a marginal section. As rgold say, it's a very rare event so it's not necessarily surprising he might not have encountered it; but don't confuse falling on a single piece with the unpredictable effects placed on lower solid pieces by pieces failing above them - the dynamics are nothing alike.

[ P.S. If you find my posts here or ST lacking in substantive info relative to staying alive climbing then you lack a level of of either discernment or common sense. Further, if this thread is any indication of what you worry about trad climbing then I have concerns for your future. ]

Dan Africk wrote: So the 36mm O-rings arrived and so far they're working great! I set them up this weekend and tried them out in the Gunks on Sunday, and they were an improvement over my previous clove hitches. Here's a few photos: Edit: I should add that the 36mm works well, the rubber has not slipped at all, but if I was ordering it again I would go slightly smaller, to make it a bit tighter- maybe 32? Just don't go any bigger, for this size sling anyway.

I'd be careful putting cloves in Dyneema (or any webbing for that matter). Awhile back I tested about eight common knots in webbing, and clove hitches were the weakest of all of them, reducing the strength by about 40%. Webbing that held 4400 lbf with sewn ends held only 2500 lbf in a clove hitch. That was for brand new samples. Used samples would hold less. Further, it's documented that Dyneema slings experience heavy loss in strength with wear. Slings that held 22kN when new have failed at under 14kN after heavy use. Accordingly, considering you're starting out at a possible 40%ish reduction in strength with brand new slings, it's conceivable that well-worn clove-hitched Dyneema slings could fail at loads seen in normal use.

Granted this test was preformed with 1" webbing, not Dyneema slings, but I've tested Dyneema slings separately and most of the traits I've experienced in standard tubular webbing (e.g. strength reduction for knots x, y and z) are mirrored in Dyneema webbing as well.

1" webbing, single strand tests

Yeah, cloving is a really bad idea on skinny slings. And those specific Mammut 8mm dyneema slings lose about 2-3k strength / year under normal wear and tear based on the testing I did on my rack of them over a four year period. I shudder to think of how fast they'd fail if they were cloved or otherwise restrained to single points of friction for any length of time.

A new 20kN rated 10mm Dyneema sling with a slip knot to sling out an improvised chickenhead broke at 9kN in my friends pull test. The weak point was the knot. This is not for reference, 'cause they didn't perform a "real" test (they broke *the* sling).

Healyje wrote: The lesson I learned at the time is that when I'm run out above a string of marginal gear that whatever the last good piece was needs to have two opposed or one locking biner. Dicking around with rubber restraints / keepers is likewise going to be just as unreliable under the same jolting circumstances and only further stiffen the sling / carabiner connection with the result being it will be as or more likely to come unclipped from the rope as an unrestrained biner. So, yeah, it stays on the sling but that doesn't buy you a ton if it unclips from the rope. Want to actually mitigate the risk? Use a featherweight locker.

Ignore the snide postscript on Healyje's post -- he has otherwise given the best advice you'll find in this whole thread.

Rubber keepers add an additional layer of complexity to your pro. At best, this adds more time and effort needed to cleanly rack and quickly place pro, all while creating very little return in terms of safety and redundancy. Cloving your alpine draws will also add that unneeded layer of complexity, PLUS it compromises the holding strength of your gear significantly.

Racking a handful of single non-lockers (to create opposition when needed) or a few ultralight lockers is a much more efficient, and arguably safer, solution. Just don't waste your time backing up every single alpine draw, give the extra attention only where it is needed - on pieces protecting runouts, cruxes, or when you are likely to fall. Otherwise you shouldn't worry - your gear will do what it is intended to.

Also bear this in mind - all the extra time you take to futz with rubber keepers or clove hitching every damn sling makes you and your party into a nuisance at popular areas. If you are climbing popular multipitch routes, that nuisance can turn into an objective hazard for other parties below.

BrianWS wrote: Rubber keepers add an additional layer of complexity to your pro. At best, this adds more time and effort needed to cleanly rack and quickly place pro ... Also bear this in mind - all the extra time you take to futz with rubber keepers or clove hitching every damn sling makes you and your party into a nuisance at popular areas. If you are climbing popular multipitch routes, that nuisance can turn into an objective hazard for other parties below.

I spend zero extra time as a result of the rubber keepers I have on two of my trad draws.

I agree that if you don't have the dexterity or familiarity to easily and efficiently use alpine draws with rubber keepers, you shouldn't use them.

Jake Jones I agree 100%.

I do exactly as you describe in the first paragraph, for me it's worth the extra weight of racking carabiners for each cam because of the ease in racking efficiency. And if I'm worried about a carabiner unclipping or it's an absolutely critical piece, I use opposite & opposed wiregates or a locker.

Unlike J. Albers (while I think he has a point), my reason for the keepers has nothing to do with worries about unclipping. I use DMM revolvers on two of my trad draws in order to reduce rope drag, especially in situations where a double-length sling would result in a ledge fall or longer fall than I'm comfortable with. If the carabiner rotates the pulley is useless, so I use keepers to prevent that. That's it.

The clove hitches are not ideal, which is why I'm happy with the solution I posted which is far better. I think the concerns with clove hitches may be be exaggerated (if one of my pieces is ever subjected to 14kn of force, I probably have bigger problems than the clove hitch..), but I see no reason to argue that- I see no reason to use clove hitches when the keepers with a full wrap are a much better solution.

Healyje wrote:those specific Mammut 8mm dyneema slings lose about 2-3k strength / year under normal wear and tear based on the testing I did on my rack of them over a four year period.

2-3 kn a year? So after four years of use, a 22kn sling would be only 12 kn?

That seem really drastic, I feel like if any gear was losing that much strength over time, this would be a widely discussed topic in the climbing community and in publications, and gear manufacturers would have stricter guidelines for retiring gear..

What condition are those slings of yours in- are they really frayed? Do you take lots of falls on them? How did you test them? Have you reported your findings to Mammut?