Another rappel accident: Thomas Huber

Just say no to short ropes

Morgan Patterson wrote:Just say no to short ropes

Short ropes matter

Yea I have to agree with Patto. I watch where I'm going every rap if I'm the first person down. It usually starts with untangling the rope or throwing the rope a couple times then watching where it lands. I always make sure the rope lands on the ground. This is much easier as I extend and backup my raps if I'm the first one.

reboot wrote: The vehicles flying-by in front of you. It's actually crossing a normally empty road that you don't have a backup. It's an issue of human complacency (very few people will "forget" to not look around rappelling into unknown territory). You combat that with simple but seemingly overkill habits. Just being careful w/ what you doing all the time will fail you at some point.

I can't speak for patto, but I'm certainly not arguing against knotting rap lines, just that in many if not most rappelling accidents where the climber goes off the ends, no knots was *not* the cause of the accident. Knots prevent catastrophe when you have already screwed up by not paying attention.

The vehicles flying-by in front of you./quote>
So it seems that looking where you are going and seeing danger in front of you is an excellent defense against mistakes.... I find it the same when rappelling.

Marc801 wrote: I can't speak for patto, but I'm certainly not arguing against knotting rap lines,

I'm not against them but I rarely use them. My choice. Though I certainly am rigorous in checking and weighting the rappel BEFORE taking my safety leash off.

patto wrote: So it seems that looking where you are going and seeing danger in front of you is an excellent defense against mistakes....

I never said they aren't, but as your only defense it's not infallible, because human get complacent/distracted, especially when performing routine stuff with little danger (like rappelling a familiar route, or crossing an usually empty street).

There are plenty of natural reminders for paying attention when rappelling a new route or crossing a busy street (cars moving in the corner of your eyes, the noise, the wake as it goes by, lights, etc, etc).

Maybe part of the problem is thinking of rappelling as "routine stuff with little danger".
Mistakes while rappelling can potentially and very quickly become fatal. Every rappel should be treated accordingly with respect for the dangers involved and be given your full attention, whether you choose to tie knots or not.

Marc801 wrote: I think you're missing the point. The knots are a backup for a mistake that already occurred. Not knotting the ropes wasn't what he forgot.

I was referring to the carpenter cutting off his finger the 10,000th time the saw was turned on. It isn't forgetting the knots, they are there to guard against that five seconds when you are inexplicably an idiot. Same point, different perspective. Anybody who thinks they are vigilant every moment of every climb and incapable of effing it, is dangerous, in my opinion. Your choice might be to always forgo knots, but that is also a technique to set your mind set. Would I climb with someone who doesn't tie those knots? You bet, if I knew their climbing mind set well. Would I rappel without them? No, I'm a noob and it would be stupid not to stick with my routine for rapelling, which is still done slowly and cautiously. Sometimes yes, sometimes no, is probably the worst way to be,

Em Cos wrote:Maybe part of the problem is thinking of rappelling as "routine stuff with little danger". Mistakes while rappelling can potentially and very quickly become fatal. Every rappel should be treated accordingly with respect for the dangers involved and be given your full attention, whether you choose to tie knots or not.

Every moment you leave the ground, it's potentially fatal, even if the danger is small. It doesn't matter how you treat something initially, your mind will adapt to the actual danger over time; being in a constant hyper-vigilant state just doesn't work if you are doing something long enough. This is not to mention rappelling is often done in a tired state of body & mind. It's worth stacking the odds in your favor in case you have a brain fart (which will happen to all of us).

I've been climbing long enough that majority of my rappelling was done without knots, so I've got hundreds, maybe thousands of knotless rappels. Knots didn't seem so great when they pulled through Jim Madsen's carabiner brake device after he purposely rappelled to the end of the rope. He fell to his death from the top of El Cap and we lost one of the best and most promising climbers of his generation.

So most of us were in no hurry to knot the rappel ropes. After a while, I started doing it more because partners wanted it. On one occasion, we got caught in a nasty situation in which both knots jammed below the rappel stance. I had to rappel past the station to the very end of the rope and untie the knots in order to unjam them. (Naturally, I had not one but rap two backups installed and was still scared!)

My current take is to use knots almost all of the time, even though I have good ingrained habits for watching where I'm going and what the ropes are doing. My reasoning is that quite a few very experienced climbers have gone off the end of their rap lines, and if they can do it, so can I.

If it is very windy, then saddle-bagging or lowering is required; we shouldn't be tossing knotted ropes if they might blow horizontally. At rope-eating places like Red Rocks, I go on a case-by-case basis.

If I haven't knotted the ends and the rappel is long without much rope left over, I'll often stop and knot both ends together for the last 10-20 feet. The single knot has the advantage that you can't forget to untie it. If you only tie it near the end of the rappel, you don't get the huge cluster that sometimes happens with such a knot tied at the very beginning of the rap.

I also make use of my half ropes. Even if a rappel is only 30m, I'll often use both ropes (and take the risk that the knot hangs when pulling the rappel). I do this for a few reasons.

• It is faster to set up the first two-rope rappel, since I don't have to pull 30m of rope through the anchor.
• I automatically get even ropes without having to look for a possibly faded middle mark, and I eliminate the possibility of mistaking something that isn't the middle mark for the middle mark.
• If something makes the rope ends uneven, I have a tremendous amount of leeway because my ropes are so overlong.

When doing multiple rappels, I find in my old age that I am more and more likely to forget which rope should be pulled after a few rappels. So I've taken to clipping a quickdraw from the pull strand to a harness gear loop to keep track of which rope to pull. This also helps to remind me to unknot the other strand before pulling.

I've said this before, but I think it bears repeating. There are many things about modern climbing that make the activity seem casual, thereby eliminating fear. Of course we don't want to be consumed by fear, but I think a little more fear would be a good thing for people of all experience levels. Not a Wagnerian opera of fear, but a nice little string quartet of fear. Just enough to keep you worried and on the lookout for those little details which, gotten wrong, will kill you.

"String Quartet of Fear". Quick, someone get a route up! Has to be what, 12 something?

20 years of climbing and I've never tied a knot in the ends of my ropes....

Pay attention never get complacent....

If your that worried always use a friction hitch above your belay device....

Or just watch your ropes as you rappel how hard is that ??

YOUR ON RAPPEL PAY ATTENTION

Rarely do I ever leave the anchor/stance unless I can see where the rope has gone too...

But what do I know.....

I double check my rappel tie into my belay device, BEFORE I lean back/unclip from the anchor EVERY TIME...

Then look again at where the rope has gone and if I feel the tiniest of apprehension I put on a friction hitch and away I go....

Jim Amidon wrote:If your that worried always use a friction hitch above your belay device....

Wasn't there a study that showed that a friction hitch above the device almost never stopped a climber whose rope ends went through their device? Anyone?

Yup, absolutely. A friction hitch, even above the device (which was the position tested) will not stop you from rapping off the ends and should never be used with that purpose in mind. In the tests, people who were on a separate belay knew they were going to rap off the ends and still couldn't release the friction hitch, which subsequently did not grab.

rgold wrote: My reasoning is that quite a few very experienced climbers have gone off the end of their rap lines, and if they can do it, so can I.

This. Given that this particular accident did happen to a very experienced climber (who has done more climbing than most climbers will in many lifetimes), I'd have thought people would be humble enough to realize they are not above such mistakes. But apparently not.

I've had one rappel close call earlier in my climbing career (and I'll admit it didn't make me knot the ends until years later because I thought it was a very special case...a silly thought considering most accidents are special cases):

I had a brand new rope with identical middle & (5M to) end marks (yes, very moronic) out ice climbing. I was prepared to rap ~50ft to the ground on overhanging terrain, but with the rap station over an initial bulge. The station had leaver biners so my partner grabbed what we thought was the middle mark, clipped in, and tossed the rope over the bulge. The one end of the rope hangs just over the bulge where you may be preoccupied with balance/vegetation/loose terrain. I'd started when someone on the ground yelled at us & asking what we were doing. I'm really not sure what would've happened w/o the intervention.

reboot wrote: This. Given that this particular accident did happen to a very experienced climber (who has done more climbing than most climbers will in many lifetimes), I'd have thought people would be humble enough to realize they are not above such mistakes. But apparently not.

I also agree that rgold's rationale is excellent. But it does not follow that those who don't tie knots are not humble. There is no need to insult people because they don't do as you do.

Marc801 wrote: I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Eh, it was the closest I could find, though I agree it's not a perfect match. It wasn't quite facetious, which I associate more with a playful kind of sarcasm, nor was it classically sarcastic. I guess you could say I was being hyperbolic.

This is a tired topic, but a great discussion nonetheless. Are the people who don't tie a knot, also not using auto-block backup? No one has mentioned what might happen if a giant rock slammed on your head, in spite of paying perfect attention. Should this happen, and you have no knots and no auto block, see you later.

Russ Keane wrote:This is a tired topic, but a great discussion nonetheless. Are the people who don't tie a knot, also not using auto-block backup? No one has mentioned what might happen if a giant rock slammed on your head, in spite of paying perfect attention. Should this happen, and you have no knots and no auto block, see you later.

A backup knot could also guarantee your death. If you are unconscious and hanging, your head goes back and you suffocate. Firemen's belay would allow an unconscious climber to be gotten down, but I sure wouldn't want to be the one trying that.

Unconscious equals screwed, pretty much. Unless you're climbing in a city park somewhere. People forget the danger of simply being out of reach of any help, or how long it takes even if help can be reached.

For myself, a backup and rockfall would mean I could use my other hand/arm if my right side was hit.

climbing friend,

you KNOT - ends of rope

you NEVER - die in common mode of rappel off end of rope, yes this it is happening far more often to the peoples than any other I-am-internet-hardman-what-if-scenario you would be yes positing here, so it is for obvious it should be done always, and any other counter argument is nothing more, nevermore, than af ools quest for internet-wang-slapping