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New Products For The USA

Original Post
Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490

We (Bolt Products) are setting up a distributor for the USA to reduce the lead times for delivery as freight and customs from Europe can be horribly slow.
One problem though is lower-offs/top anchors/chainsets. Firstly because we can offer an infinate range over here as we manufacture to order and secondly the American climbers have different ideas to Europeans regarding what´s good or safe.

So we want some feedback about what would be good/bad as we can´t send stock of everything over.

For bolts we will be sending four different types, our twisted leg bolts in 6mm and 8mm stainless steel rod and 10mm and 12m solid (single shaft) bolts, all of these in 4 different lengths. We will also be sending over our 8mm rod welded belay/rap hanger (there´s a photo of this later on.)

For top anchors we plan to send a range of bolts fitted with 2 or 4 link chains and the accesories required to build up whatever the installer wants. The chain is our normal 8mm long link 316 chain which has the advantage over normal chains that you can clip in anywhere with any karabiner.
These can be built up in various combinations (along with single bolts without chains) with the following components:

Ring Link Maillon

These are a 10mm ring or a 12mm Big Link and an 8mm long series maillon (quicklink). The Big Link is as an alternative to rings as we know that rings should turn and wear evenly but we know they mostly don´t, the Big Link is half the price as they are much cheaper to make and when it becomes part worn can simply be flipped over. The maillon (quick link) is sized to fit over 12mm components which the normal ones don´t.
Additionally our 10mm rod Pigtail/Ramshorn for drop-in lower-offs, these require no quicklink.
Ramshorn

All this can be built up in many combinations:-

Inline Ramshorn

Which is what I install or

2 Ramshorns

or

2 link Big Link

Or any combination you can think of!

Hangers:-

We will be sending our 8mm belay hanger;

8mm Rod belay hanger

Also with 2 or 4 link chains available. These come 10mm or 3/8" hole and 12mm or 1/2" hole.

We are also thinking of producing a "real" rap hanger which will look like this;

12mm rap hanger

This thing is strong, the rod loop is 12mm bar and welded both in front and through the back of the plate. 3/8" or 1/2" hole.
We have to see if there is enough interest in something like this to work out production numbers and tooling costs but hopefully it will be around the $7-$8 level retail.

Any ideas, comments, what else we should send?????????

Ken Noyce · · Layton, UT · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2,648

This is awesome Jim! I'm so glad that you're finally getting a US distributor. As far as the products you are planning on carrying, the products you listed seems good to me. I can't really think of anywhere that I would use the "Real" rap hanger, so I don't know if it's worth setting up the tooling for it, but there may be others who like the idea. Personally, I'd be happy if I could just get the 6mm rod twisted leg bolts and the ramshorns, but I'm sure that others will use the other components that you send.

Ken Noyce · · Layton, UT · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2,648

Jim, Just a thought for getting more traffic on this thread, change the title to something like "Bringing Titt Bolts to the USA". Also a bump to try and get more action on this thread.

Cor · · Sandbagging since 1989 · Joined Mar 2006 · Points: 1,445

Yeah! Bump for JT!

Who is the distributor going to be?

Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945

Very cool! I agree looks like you've got all the bases covered... I dont think the Rap Bolt would be popular however those ramshorns look very cool.

Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
Cor wrote:Yeah! Bump for JT! Who is the distributor going to be?
We´ll announce it when it´s all set up and ready to go, still got to work on a few things like price structure.
Name · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 25
Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
Morgan Patterson wrote:Very cool! I agree looks like you've got all the bases covered... I dont think the Rap Bolt would be popular however those ramshorns look very cool.
Any particular reason against the Rap Bolt? It´s going to be for sure the cheapest way of getting a bolt-on 316 stainless long-lasting top anchor that won´t twist the rope to shit like the others do.
All suggestions welcome, it´s still in development!
Ken Noyce · · Layton, UT · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2,648
Name wrote:
That's a good point Jim, I know you don't sell Mussy's, but your wiregate carabiners for anchors would be something that I'm sure would be used on this side of the pond.
Ken Noyce · · Layton, UT · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2,648
Jim Titt wrote: Any particular reason against the Rap Bolt? It´s going to be for sure the cheapest way of getting a bolt-on 316 stainless long-lasting top anchor that won´t twist the rope to shit like the others do. All suggestions welcome, it´s still in development!
My main issue with it is that here in the US it will be installed as two of them side by side, and with the design as it is, will end up loosening the nut on the bolt very quickly with use.
Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
Name wrote:
Mussy Hooks?
Well we can supply them in stainless steel but whether they are any better than the normal stainless wiregate karabiners we supply is questionable, they cost more than a 10mm biner and about the same as a 12mm one.
I´d have to get some in to test anyway, the rated load is too low for the European market but the manufacturers figures aren´t always that exact (or they get mixed up with working load and breaking load).
Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
kennoyce wrote: My main issue with it is that here in the US it will be installed as two of them side by side, and with the design as it is, will end up loosening the nut on the bolt very quickly with use.
Ha! We´d install them more or less vertically over here so not a problem for us, either that or pre-set them inwards.
The original had the bolt in the more normal place but makes the backing plate more expensive to make and was weaker in testing as the plate bends easier. The weakness isn´t such a problem since we are already talking about stronger than the bolt anyway but extra cost is a problem like always! I´d have to change from stamping and cropping strip to water-jetting a triangular plate from sheet and in 4 or 5mm this isn´t real cheap.
Extending the plate and adding a hole underneath is reasonable enough to do, only need a small bolt or rivet to stop them moving but then it´s another hole to drill up on the cliff.
Ken Noyce · · Layton, UT · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2,648
Jim Titt wrote: Mussy Hooks? Well we can supply them in stainless steel but whether they are any better than the normal stainless wiregate karabiners we supply is questionable, they cost more than a 10mm biner and about the same as a 12mm one. I´d have to get some in to test anyway, the rated load is too low for the European market but the manufacturers figures aren´t always that exact (or they get mixed up with working load and breaking load).
Here in the US the general thought is that there is a lot more metal to wear through on a mussy hook than on a carabiner, so that's the main reason they are used. At least in the plated steel ones used over here, the breaking strength is usually in the relm of 8000 to 10000 lbs, so plenty strong.
Ken Noyce · · Layton, UT · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2,648
Jim Titt wrote: Ha! We´d install them more or less vertically over here so not a problem for us, either that or pre-set them inwards. The original had the bolt in the more normal place but makes the backing plate more expensive to make and was weaker in testing as the plate bends easier. The weakness isn´t such a problem since we are already talking about stronger than the bolt anyway but extra cost is a problem like always! I´d have to change from stamping and cropping strip to water-jetting a triangular plate from sheet and in 4 or 5mm this isn´t real cheap. Extending the plate and adding a hole underneath is reasonable enough to do, only need a small bolt or rivet to stop them moving but then it´s another hole to drill up on the cliff.
Yep, for some reason you Europeans always do things the logical way, but here in 'Murica we like our traditions, and one of those is that anchor bolts always go side by side. You could pre-set them inwards, but even if they are just slightly off it wouldn't be long until they loosened up a bit and their weight caused them to hang vertically, further exacerbating the problem. The hole in the bottom is a good idea, but yeah, I don't know how many people would want to drill the extra hole even though if you just put a small rivet in it wouldn't be a big deal.
doligo · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 264

Depends on the price point. What would ramshorns would retail for? I can already foresee our local climbers (not developers) complaining about those. For the record, they already complain about mussey hooks (the gates are too stiff) or that they are not extended to bring the focal point together (((eyeroll))).

Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
kennoyce wrote: Here in the US the general thought is that there is a lot more metal to wear through on a mussy hook than on a carabiner, so that's the main reason they are used. At least in the plated steel ones used over here, the breaking strength is usually in the relm of 8000 to 10000 lbs, so plenty strong.
I can only get two sizes in stainless, the biggest is only 115mm long altogether so 4 1/2". The strength given is 1500kg but might be working load though as the two sizes available are matched to the trailer winches they are intended for. Problem is cast stainless is nothing like as strong as cast steel.
I´ve tested a chain hook from the same company which they rate with a Breaking Load of 3650kg and I get 3580kg so mostly they are pretty close with their numbers.
Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
doligo wrote:Depends on the price point. What would ramshorns would retail for? I can already foresee our local climbers (not developers) complaining about those. For the record, they already complain about mussey hooks (the gates are too stiff) or that they are not extended to bring the focal point together (((eyeroll))).
Climbers complain about anything, I just suggest they equip the routes themselves how they like:-)

We´ve dropped the price of ramshorns as we can now make them faster and so the relative price difference in Europe is:-

10mm ramshorn €8.00
10mm wiregate karabiner €9.98
12mm " " €15.00
Stainless Mussy Hook € €11.31
The big saving is the ramshorn fits direct, the others you need a quicklink to install so another €6 or so.
doligo · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Sep 2008 · Points: 264

Thanks, Jim. So after you put a ramshorn on a hanger or chainlink, do you clamp them so they stay there and are not easy to remove? Climbers in the US tend to have sticky fingers.

Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
doligo wrote:Thanks, Jim. So after you put a ramshorn on a hanger or chainlink, do you clamp them so they stay there and are not easy to remove? Climbers in the US tend to have sticky fingers.
They are installed with a hammer, they are a tight fit. Trouble is we have to make them a bit wider for the 10mm and 12mm stuff as standard is to fit over 6mm and 8mm but that´s easy enough as long as the customer specifies it.
For a few customers over here we weld them shut to prevent theft but I can only remember doing that twice in six or seven years, the problem for you guys is then I have to make up the whole thing over here.
An alternative is to get a small stainless saddle clamp or a hose clamp and slide it on, tighten it up then damage the threads, then the thief needs to carry a bit more than a hammer.
Ken Noyce · · Layton, UT · Joined Aug 2010 · Points: 2,648
Jim Titt wrote: I can only get two sizes in stainless, the biggest is only 115mm long altogether so 4 1/2". The strength given is 1500kg but might be working load though as the two sizes available are matched to the trailer winches they are intended for. Problem is cast stainless is nothing like as strong as cast steel. I´ve tested a chain hook from the same company which they rate with a Breaking Load of 3650kg and I get 3580kg so mostly they are pretty close with their numbers.
Good point, I wasn't thinking about the fact that the stainless mussy's would be cast. The only stainless mussy's I've seen here in the US are forged which means that they are WAY more expensive. Personally, I think that either the ramshorns or the wiregate biners are the way to go. I generally equip my routes with Trango steel wiregate biners, but having a stainless option that is reasonably priced would be nice. I'm not a huge fan of Mussy's, but they do last longer than just a steel biner.
Morgan Patterson · · NH · Joined Oct 2009 · Points: 8,945
kennoyce wrote: Good point, I wasn't thinking about the fact that the stainless mussy's would be cast. The only stainless mussy's I've seen here in the US are forged which means that they are WAY more expensive. Personally, I think that either the ramshorns or the wiregate biners are the way to go. I generally equip my routes with Trango steel wiregate biners, but having a stainless option that is reasonably priced would be nice. I'm not a huge fan of Mussy's, but they do last longer than just a steel biner.
thought we agree that the quicklinks and mussy hooks didnt need to be SS (as GC is so unlikely to be an issue) so why spend the extra dough or even consider SS qlinks/mussy etc?
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Fixed Hardware: Bolts & Anchors
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