outside corner pitch 3 belay bolts and memorial plaque.

I can't believe this has happened! I've started a gofundme to help pay for the installation of new bolts. Unfortunately, the battery on my drill is caput, so I'm going to I'm going to have to replace it get this done. Dig deep people.

gofundme.com/2h8n6a4

Never expect fixed gear on a traditional climb established in the 40's to be there.
It is nice to have some climbs that foster self reliance.
Sounds like you got it done and back home safe.
I have never even seen a sling up there,but sure cut them all.
Very cool to get safely to the top, pull your rope, walk off, and have nothing below you but rock and air.
Kinda bummed to have you in our community too.

Trent Boghley wrote:So explain why I should have to prepare for hypocritical morons? And go!

Because you have a misplaced sense of entitlement...

Trent Boghley wrote:So youll have no issue with me leaving a big sling along at the top? Much bigger than those bolts? Good. Also climbed earlier in the year and they were there. So explain why I should have to prepare for hypocritical morons? And go!

Because all of us hypocritical morons believe in leaving it in the condition the first ascensionist climbed it ( merriam-webster.com/diction…). I am a balls on hypocrite apparently. Slings are usually left because someone was forced to bail on this route. If you want to leave your gear at the top as a charity to those who follow, that is OK (kind of weird though). It can and will be accepted as a donation to those who come after.

Let me direct you to the standard descent - mountainproject.com/v/outsi…. If you aren't able to descend the trail (the standard descent for a few decades now), maybe you should seek another pastime that is better suited to your emotioal and phycial limitations.

PT

So eons ago I remember going to do some old school route in South Platte and finding an old Leeper hanger with a 1/4" bolt at the bottom. Cool, I thought and tossed it in my pack. When I got to a few pitches up I found out what that was all about. The other bolt was about to fall out too. I had to leave a big piece behind for the rap.

I remember this time on Moro Rock when I got off route and ran it out a full pitch with a few stoppers under some shitty exfoliating flakes. No bolts for me!

I remember the first time I went to Hueco Tanks and I couldn't afford a guide book (just used the one in the ranger station!) and ended up leading some 5.11R slabby poop my pants route instead of the 5.9 to the left. That, and that route with the bee nest on it.

I remember the first pitch of White Punks on Dope when leaned back on the shitty column on the first pitch and the column flexed out and all my gear fell out.....

Don't get me wrong, I have kids, a mortgage, receding hair line, increasing waist line, etc. and have no interest in dying or getting hurt, but fuck, years later these are the some of my fondest memories I have from climbing, and learning to keep a cool head in the face of imminent bodily harm, learning to think on your feet, you can't buy that. If your looking for safety, maybe check out bowling or golf.

Shakes head....

What sfotex said, and a reminder that when it comes to historic, classic routes you are swimming in the deep end. Your expectations are a recent development.

Trent Boghley wrote:Please explain how safety comes after ethics?

MP would have to up their network bandwidth and server provisioning for us to really do a decent job of explaining that.

Trent Boghley wrote:So you're saying they're not an eye sore or how the first ascentionists would have done it / left it? Not seeing legs on this argument. Basically who ever did it is a huge hypocrite with their own agenda hiding behind "ethics".

Oh trent, where do I even begin to destroy your argument? Let's see is it the fact that you openeed your account yesterday just so you could spray your incoherent argument all over, all the while not having an actual clue? Holy shit, read some books written by some of the old school guys, watch some climbing videos on YouTube, listen to the Hayden Kennedy enormocast.com episode. In other words try and learn what you're talking about before you shit yourself with
self-righteousness. K dude let's talk clean climbing for a minute. This is why the slings are not an eyesore and the bolts were. The slings can be removed at any time. See clean. The bolts however leave holes in the rock and someone has to patch the holes. See not clean. So yes cut the slings, I'd have done it that day as well but forgot my knife. If you have some preconceived notion that self reliance and traditional climbing don't go hand in hand perhaps you should stick to the slips, hellgate or the gym. I am part of the community, so get used to it. By the way the big boulder up there that can easily be slung with a cordelettes takes less time than building an anchor on bolts and as I know first hand is actually safer. None of the babies whining about them being chopped ever bothered to crank on them with their nut tool did you? They were very loose, very loose about an eighth of a turn ant the entire bolt, wedge, hanger and all slipped right out, hmm that is very strange. So in actuality you're welcome. You could have been the the unfortunate one they failed on.

Trent Boghley wrote: Please explain how safety comes after ethics?

Your question doesn't apply here...this route is safe without the bolts. You managed to (supposedly) safely place gear all of the way up the route. Building a natural belay is also safe.

For over 50 years people have been safely climbing this route. Similar classic trad routes in Yosemite and the Tetons also remain bolt free. There are plenty of bolted routes around the Wasatch one can feel safe on if you don't like building trad belay anchors.

The bolts shouldn't be there.

Moving along...gothic pillar plaque?

Marking the start of an alpine route on a big wall is common in many areas. It is even common at some sport areas.

Alpine practices are different than what one would expect on a roadside,easy to find, trade route.

A route marker that benefits everyone is a bit different than putting a death memorial on top of a highly traveled historic climb.

justa beater wrote: By the way the big boulder up there that can easily be slung with a cordelettes

Not to mention a tree or 50 within a few feet of the edge... Not a hard route to build a bomber belay on, in any number of ways.

Sean H wrote:Moving along...gothic pillar plaque?

This one is easy:

Hey Brian, what do you think of the plaque on your route?

sfotex wrote: This one is easy: Hey Brian, what do you think of the plaque on your route?

Well said, as I stated I did make every attempt to contact the family and friends of Billy Rothstien to find out why it was placed and discuss it's removal.you always need to do what you can to contact either the FA or group responsible for whatever action is in question. I would tend to agree with not placing a plaque on a route is a better choice. Good pics and natural landmarks are a much better way to mark a route. That said I also respect the FA and believe if it were to be removed that it is a discussion to have with them and express concerns and opinions in a reasonable manner.

What about retro-plaquing? Do you need permission? Why just gothic pillar, we could label the whole Castle! Maybe put plaques up with the grades at each belay for the next pitch.

Sean:

My point was about the bolts. The plaque was James's idea, although I did make it for him. These are common in Europe.

If it offends you, just remove it.

Personally I don't care.

Route labels are common in Europe, as are memorials to the dead.

I just think it's interesting how some of these things make people really mad, and ready to get out the pitchforks, but just up the road, or the canyon over, different crag - it's fine.

Belay bolts at the top of a route? Terrible, evil eyesores. Big ass rat's nests of tat down below? Nah, leave that.

Sean, please clean up the tat.
Thanks
The bolts were not eye sores they were on a historic natural route that is safely protectable.

Sean H wrote:Personally I don't care. Route labels are common in Europe, as are memorials to the dead. I just think it's interesting how some of these things make people really mad, and ready to get out the pitchforks, but just up the road, or the canyon over, different crag - it's fine. Belay bolts at the top of a route? Terrible, evil eyesores. Big ass rat's nests of tat down below? Nah, leave that.

We obviously know how I feel about plaques and retrobolting. If you ask me, we're not Europe we don't need plaques of any kind anywhere period. If you want euro experience then go to Europe. However I don't feel it my place to remove something from someone else'sroute when that person can be easily contacted. It's their job, if we can stop bickering and come together as a community to say this is not acceptable, please take it down the FA can then decide for his/herself if it is to come down.I will clean the slings from the route, as well as adding a vote to the removal of the plaque at the base of gothic pillar. If you can't find it, perhaps you're not ready to climb it, that's how I see it

justa beater wrote: Oh trent, where do I even begin to destroy your argument? Let's see is it the fact that you openeed your account yesterday just so you could spray your incoherent argument all over, all the while not having an actual clue? Holy shit, read some books written by some of the old school guys, watch some climbing videos on YouTube, listen to the Hayden Kennedy enormocast.com episode. In other words try and learn what you're talking about before you shit yourself with self-righteousness. K dude let's talk clean climbing for a minute. This is why the slings are not an eyesore and the bolts were. The slings can be removed at any time. See clean. The bolts however leave holes in the rock and someone has to patch the holes. See not clean. So yes cut the slings, I'd have done it that day as well but forgot my knife. If you have some preconceived notion that self reliance and traditional climbing don't go hand in hand perhaps you should stick to the slips, hellgate or the gym. I am part of the community, so get used to it. By the way the big boulder up there that can easily be slung with a cordelettes takes less time than building an anchor on bolts and as I know first hand is actually safer. None of the babies whining about them being chopped ever bothered to crank on them with their nut tool did you? They were very loose, very loose about an eighth of a turn ant the entire bolt, wedge, hanger and all slipped right out, hmm that is very strange. So in actuality you're welcome. You could have been the the unfortunate one they failed on.

Ah, an account age has something to do with an argument. Well there is a logical fallacy. Probably just as much of an argument as someone who lives in Sandy having any logic.

A man who does half the job and comes to talk about being the coherent one. Who am I to judge your competence at being ability have a clear overall sense of ethics. Someone who idolizes "first ascentionists"... which are you talking about? Perhaps the ones who passed on further education to pursue rock climbing? Right, I listen to highschoolers all the time...

While I understand the concept of clean and unclean, this is an absurdly trafficked route, having a conga line with every other pitch having "clean" anchors that "aren't" an eye sore is dumb. That was a way to move people so they could enjoy it. Sure if this wasn't literally 10ft off the road, with thousands of cars/hillbilly trucks/loud pipe motor cycles, and slings, webbing, and pieces of rope all over it... then obviously why would you bolt it... but this is basically an argument in defense of the hip belay... sure it "worked"... and the ATC also works in plenty of situations. Every have to dodge a falling rock while hip belaying and catching a fall? There is a reason safety in our sport is important and when that many people trying a route so low graded and accessible bolts make sense. Or are you someone who does blanket statements that you cherry pick? Do people climb anything the same way they did 50 years ago? Thanks for making a decision for the entire community.

Finally Which boulder are you referring? Because the only acceptable one is about 20ft+ up and unless you have an insanely long cordelette you're not using a redundant system, I used the rope on that. Clearly you don't know how fast a quad is... maybe you're still hip belaying, wait you're not because you cherry pick your "ethics" Thanks for the safety tips Kellen.