outside corner pitch 3 belay bolts and memorial plaque.

I find that plaque and any other type of plaque an individual might place on a climb for any reason ugly and unacceptable and I would vote to have it removed.

Tom Grummon wrote: I have seen many chopped bolts and it is rarely done well. As for rationalizations, it seems to me that that is exactly what is going on in this thread from the pro-chopping crowd. "Tradition" is most certainty a rationalization. You use modern gear and techniques, yet all the sudden tradition matters when it comes to this one issue. Chopping and bolting are the same in my opinion, you are imposing your will and ethic on the climb. There is a time and place for both. But unless it is done properly and well though out, it is usually just ego.

I climb it with a set of nuts, hexes 2 cordelettes and some lockers, so yes I do use the gear of the era that established the route.

justa beater wrote: I climb it with a set of nuts, hexes 2 cordelettes and some lockers, so yes I do use the gear of the era that established the route.

Oh really?

Yeah, solo with modern shoes is rough

Healyje wrote: The rest were entertainment, socializing and ego.

Isn't that basically all climbing? ;-)

OldManRiver wrote: we need to keep an eye on sfotex & make sure the $ goes either to removal or a local route developer like Greg Martinez. Can't have those funds going towards tinder dates!

Well, sounds like you guys put up and then some. Guess I'll have to throw in an additional $100 and donate it to ASCA.

That or I was thinking of bolting and fixing perma-draws on the Lowe Route so I people don't have to mess with packing gear up there.

Tom Grummon wrote:modern techniques

Still kind of on the edge of my seat waiting to get educated on these...

Healyje wrote: You clearly don't know what the word 'tradition' means - it is never a rationalization, it is a simple statement of don't retrobolt. And there is nothing about 'modern gear' that's particularly modern beyond the initial development of cams unless you count grigris, but then they really aren't about climbing but rather about the hanging. And 'techniques'? Please. Tell me what 'modern techniques' I use or rely on; none I can think of.

Clearly everyone still climbs with hemp ropes, leather boots and racks of pitons all while giving hip belays. Clean climbing is a relatively modern idea in the world of climbing (which by the way is an ethic I agree with).

Healyje wrote: Bullshit. Bolting is rarely 'well thought out'; to the contrary it's usually a gridbolting exercise that runs the length of a cliff and typically less than a third of the 'routes' were worth bothering with in the first place. The rest were entertainment, socializing and ego. Bottom line, retrobolting is a chickenshit, lowest-common-denominator activity and always will be. And there is basically no circumstances where they shouldn't be chopped.

Do you have any capacity for nuance and subtlety? The situation you described above is far from what we are taking about. You'll notice I said before that chopping has its place. But let's not confuse the issue we are talking about. This post was about two bolts and a plaque, not at grid bolted crag. You're creating a fallacious straw-man for the sake of picking a fight on the internet.

It really worries me when blanket statements like "there is basically no circumstances where they shouldn't be chopped" get thrown around. Are a few bolts worth installing to protect a tree or prevent rope grooves in sandstone? Should we replace a rusty rattly old piton or bolt with newer hardware? Would the first ascent party have done things differently if circumstances had been different?

The world is not black and white Healyje. And I suggest you learn to appreciate complexities in life.

sfotex wrote: Well, sounds like you guys put up and then some. Guess I'll have to throw in an additional $100 and donate it to ASCA. That or I was thinking of bolting and fixing perma-draws on the Lowe Route so I people don't have to mess with packing gear up there.

I like the way you think!

Tom Grummon wrote: Clearly everyone still climbs with hemp ropes, leather boots and racks of pitons all while giving hip belays. Clean climbing is a relatively modern idea in the world of climbing (which by the way is an ethic I agree with).

Clean climbing pretty much came and went for the purposes of this discussion. Ropes and boots aren't techniques. Hip belaying (and stancing) are clearly lost arts, but still just as effective at stopping falls today as any modern device.

Tom Grummon wrote:But let's not confuse the issue we are talking about. This post was about two bolts and a plaque, not at grid bolted crag. You're creating a fallacious straw-man for the sake of picking a fight on the internet.

I'm not trying to pick a fight, you're the one who came up with the blanket statement that chopping is bad always done badly. I'm simply calling you on those assertions.

Tom Grummon wrote:It really worries me when blanket statements like "there is basically no circumstances where they shouldn't be chopped" get thrown around. Are a few bolts worth installing to protect a tree or prevent rope grooves in sandstone? Should we replace a rusty rattly old piton or bolt with newer hardware? Would the first ascent party have done things differently if circumstances had been different? The world is not black and white Healyje. And I suggest you learn to appreciate complexities in life.

Oh, I do. But again, it's you who came up with the black and white assertion about chopping that was largely devoid of nuance and complexity. But let's also be clear about what we're saying. Retrobolting is the adding of protection where there previously was none. It's not anchor replacement, subbing anchors for tree slings, or rebolting an existing pin or bolt, though I will note all fixed pro needs periodic maintenance - both pins and bolts - so I wouldn't automatically agree with subbing a bolt for a pin in every case in every rock type.

So when I say there are almost no legitimate circumstances for retrobolting I mean the above - adding protection where there previously was none. Now, you may be able to make a case for the anchor in the OP, but it doesn't sound like it from what folks who've done the route say about it.

Problem solved. Next subject, what's next?

Thanx, I hope you had a good time.

mikewhite wrote: Problem solved. Next subject, what's next?

? . . . . . . Road trip ?

I just saw this:

Troy Isakson, From: Spokane, WA, Jun 8, 2016

Access update....
All routes near and north of the state parking lot are on state land.
Highway Rock and Banana Split Dome are on two separate pieces of private property.
Access is permissible for the upper half of Highway Rock (The Apron)
and
Banana Split Dome as this is on a larger piece of land owned by a landowner that has given permission to climb.

However, the base of Highway Rock is on a small four acre piece of land that is off-limits
per this land owner.

Please stay off the land at the base of Highway Rock/The Apron.

This makes many new sport routes inaccessible.

Please respect this land owner's wishes and do not climb or be at the base of Highway Rock.

Highway Rock is the big slab area close to the highway with the sweeping overhang in the middle.
This includes the climbs left and right of Orion.

If access is granted in the future, we will update on here.

So I'm wrong to recommend anything, go enjoy the top half & other close by rock there is no shortage of cragging around Spokane.

Then I saw this !!??? Oh please. . .

Mike Lane
2 hours ago
Rock Climbing photo Here's a slab I bolted. It's a horror show.

I broke convention when I bolted this slab. I chose to push boundaries and rap down instead of the common mundane ground up style. It wasn't easy. At times, I was mildly concerned whether my GriGri would stay cinched up while I fumbled around with the tool bag. Hanging up there I also had to fight the unnerving thought that someone might stop and break into my truck. The worst part was dealing with all the falcon egg yolks on my shoes from kicking the nest off the ledge.
This sport isn't for sissies......

From here: mountainproject.com/v/bolte…
,

Well the bolts are gone, but whatever inbred utard who used the excuse they were an eyesore and/or not up to 'ethics' forgot to clean up all the rope and slings the ENTIRE way up the climb. Way to prove half your point... I'll bet you snuck up late at night, real bold... maybe try not being such a piece of shit. I hate that you're in my community.

Trent Boghley wrote:Well the bolts are gone, but whatever inbred utard who used the excuse they were an eyesore and/or not up to 'ethics' forgot to clean up all the rope and slings the ENTIRE way up the climb. Way to prove half your point... I'll bet you snuck up late at night, real bold... maybe try not being such a piece of shit. I hate that you're in my community.

Woah dude. Outside corner has sported fixed slings at pitch 1 and pitch 2 belay for years.

So you're saying they're not an eye sore or how the first ascentionists would have done it / left it? Not seeing legs on this argument. Basically who ever did it is a huge hypocrite with their own agenda hiding behind "ethics".

Trent Boghley wrote:Well the bolts are gone, but whatever inbred utard who used the excuse they were an eyesore and/or not up to 'ethics' forgot to clean up all the rope and slings the ENTIRE way up the climb. Way to prove half your point... I'll bet you snuck up late at night, real bold... maybe try not being such a piece of shit. I hate that you're in my community.

Is it the community of internet trolls?

Bingo sfotex

Troll? Did the climb yesterday expecting those for a quick belay and off instead had to do some dumb shit as you place most of your rack on that long previous pitch. Please explain how safety comes after ethics? Especially hypocritical ethics? And go!

Trent Boghley wrote:Troll? Did the climb yesterday expecting those for a quick belay and off instead had to do some dumb shit as you place most of your rack on that long previous pitch. Please explain how safety comes after ethics? Especially hypocritical ethics? And go!

I think the expectation to have fixed protection on a route that's traditionally never had it is unreasonable at best.

In the long run, learning to ration your rack so you can build an anchor at the end of a pitch is good learning which will benefit you and your partners' safety should you decide to stay with the sport.

Fixed slings are transient. Easy enough to remove. And, since most climbers on traditionally protected routes carry a few slings, not hard to replace.

So youll have no issue with me leaving a big sling along at the top? Much bigger than those bolts? Good. Also climbed earlier in the year and they were there. So explain why I should have to prepare for hypocritical morons? And go!