Training for long approaches w/ gear, trad climbing

Kyle Tarry wrote: Feel free to provide a link to your own scientific studies about how bad running is for your knees.

http://ajs.sagepub.com/content/38/5/1007.short
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/240…
rua.ua.es/dspace/handle/100…
synapse.koreamed.org/DOIx.p…
oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=g…

Conclusion: some running (w/ good form & health knee) is good, since it's a weight bearing exercise (you can also get that from weight lifting). But a lot of running (at a more elite level) is more likely to grind away your cartilage.

reboot wrote: Conclusion: some running (w/ good form & health knee) is good, since it's a weight bearing exercise (you can also get that from weight lifting). But a lot of running (at a more elite level) is more likely to grind away your cartilage.

And this aligns pretty well with what seems to be the reasonable conventional wisdom for (rock) climbers: some limited amounts of running may be useful for those lacking general aerobic fitness and/or needing more hiking stamina (like the OP). But excessive amounts of running (like training for a marathon) is generally something to be avoided for those who want to improve their rock climbing.

reboot wrote: ajs.sagepub.com/content/38/…

This is a study on triathlons, not running. It's also for racers, not climbers trying to build some fitness. A few short comments:

"Injuries were predominantly sustained during the run (38.4%)"

Well, the run is the last part of a tri, so that might have something to do with it.

"and abrasions (28.6%) were the most common site and nature of injury"

Is somebody making an argument that running causes abrasion injuries? I must have missed that.

reboot wrote:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24055861

"These data indicate that a 3-day period of functional overreaching results in substantially more muscle damage and soreness, and systemic inflammation in runners compared to cyclists"

A short period of hard running makes you more sore than a short period of hard cycling. Ok, that seems sensible. I don't quite see how that translates to "you shouldn't do some running as part of your training program." I'm not going to argue that 3 days of hard running doesn't make you sore, who would argue against that?

reboot wrote:http://rua.ua.es/dspace/handle/10045/17816

Overuse injuries from triathlon. Does that mean that running, cycling, and swimming are ALL bad? Yo definitely won't get any overuse injuries if you sit on the couch.

reboot wrote:http://synapse.koreamed.org/DOIx.php?id=10.5535/arm.2012.36.1.80

"Effect of Ultra-marathon (308 km) Race..."

Ok, I'll concede on this point. I will stop recommending that climbers go out and run 191 miles at a time as part of their training regimen.

C'mon dude, really? This is like saying that climbing is bad, because people got injured after bouldering for 48 hours straight.

reboot wrote:Conclusion: some running (w/ good form & health knee) is good, since it's a weight bearing exercise (you can also get that from weight lifting). But a lot of running (at a more elite level) is more likely to grind away your cartilage.

Yup, pretty much the same conclusion that I already stated. I don't see anybody recommending training like an elite runner. Of course that results in injuries, the same is true for all elite athletes. Like you said, some running is good.

Check out some of the training programs from Mountain Athlete: strongswiftdurable.com/moun…

May be a higher level of commitment than you're looking for if you just want to train for approaches, but worth a look.

Kyle Tarry wrote: This is a study on triathlons, not running. It's also for racers, not climbers trying to build some fitness. A few short comments: "Injuries were predominantly sustained during the run (38.4%)" Well, the run is the last part of a tri, so that might have something to do with it. "and abrasions (28.6%) were the most common site and nature of injury" Is somebody making an argument that running causes abrasion injuries? I must have missed that. "These data indicate that a 3-day period of functional overreaching results in substantially more muscle damage and soreness, and systemic inflammation in runners compared to cyclists" A short period of hard running makes you more sore than a short period of hard cycling. Ok, that seems sensible. I don't quite see how that translates to "you shouldn't do some running as part of your training program." I'm not going to argue that 3 days of hard running doesn't make you sore, who would argue against that? Overuse injuries from triathlon. Does that mean that running, cycling, and swimming are ALL bad? Yo definitely won't get any overuse injuries if you sit on the couch. "Effect of Ultra-marathon (308 km) Race..." Ok, I'll concede on this point. I will stop recommending that climbers go out and run 191 miles at a time as part of their training regimen. C'mon dude, really? This is like saying that climbing is bad, because people got injured after bouldering for 48 hours straight. Yup, pretty much the same conclusion that I already stated. I don't see anybody recommending training like an elite runner. Of course that results in injuries, the same is true for all elite athletes. Like you said, some running is good.

kyle, im pretty sure reboot is a troll. he has gotten a bunch of fights started that never needed to happen. id just ignore him and keep running. i run, bike, swim, stairs and climb every week. i typically run between 10k and half marathon every time i go out but never more than that. i have never gotten an injury and strongly feel that i have noticed the benefits of running. i think MOST people will agree there is benefit there with small risk of injury. keep on running (and mainly climbing)

I have no scientific studies to base this on...

After observing that stabilizer muscles in my legs / hips / waist are sore after approaches, I started strengthening them with balance & core exercises.

I don't think that doing stairs or walking on a treadmill with a pack gets to the stabilizer muscles. Walking on uneven ground and rocks is very different and requires balance / core.

Has it helped? Can't really say. :-)

Kyle Tarry wrote:Overuse injuries from triathlon. Does that mean that running, cycling, and swimming are ALL bad? Yo definitely won't get any overuse injuries if you sit on the couch.

I didn't dispute that...but that's a false premise: we are talking about comparing different aerobic activities, not whether to do anything at all. The fact is there are no studies of 30-50 yr horizon comparing the long term effect of running vs cycling or something else for active individuals, so yes, at best we can extrapolate from people who are more extreme over a shorter period of time.

Here's another: drive.google.com/open?id=0B… I'm including the pdf since it's not publicly available.

Triathlon is often chosen b/c it's one of the few sports with 3 different endurance exercises. No (especially human, since you are also not getting an IRB approval that are likely to harm the human subject) study is perfect, but the Stanford study also did not demystify the danger of running relevant to the scenario in this thread.

Jake wander wrote: id just ignore him and keep running.

I'm not here to please you or tell you how smart your opinions or decisions are, that's for sure.

This thread is long and probably contentious already....but did anyone mention Mark Twight's Training for the New Alpinism ? I've been doing this plus trad climbing 2-3 times a week, weights 2x a week (I personally need to build leg strength and for gen fitness; I'm 57).

The hr zones at 1-3.0 seem to work for me and I train 3x a week with about 30 to 35 pounds on the trail for 1 to 4 hours each session including trad approaches. I use long stairs (hotels) when traveling and I do the water jug hikes whenever I have access to water to refill. I also do box steps.

The core routine and various choices of strength training (weights or just activity) keep it from getting boring and prevent plateauing. There is a huge thread on it here...
mountainproject.com/v/new-a…

training keeps you young and out of trouble :)

Pistol squats!

Don't know if it's been mentioned, but foam rolling and/or aggressive stretching for your calfs in addition to workouts. Regular foam rolling did wonders for the tightness I'd get going up hills.

ted, do you work in a tall office building? i work in a building that is 12 stories tall. if i have something planned where i know i am going to have to hike in and do something long, i just do a pretty simple stair routine. i try to do about 30 to 40 flights of stairs (3 times up the building), 2 or 3 times a day, every other day. on the way up, i try to do 2 stairs at a time. on the way down i just go at a standard pace.

the nice thing about this is that it doesn't take very long, is very simple, and works pretty well. i think when you do it 3 times a day, it helps get your body used to the on and off cycling spread out through the day, which is kind of similar to how the day usually goes on a long route.

i think some of the other folks are correct about the calf muscles thing. i would guess that 99% of the problem is climbing really slow, stopping a lot to tinker with gear, and not relaxing. all of this takes practice though.

hope this helps.

Unfortunately, no...1 story school building :). You're probably right, but there's not much I can do about that aside from climbing outside as much as I can in Chicago with an infant (~1x a month), so I'm looking for supplemental training to compensate for this. I'm sure there is a mental/efficiency element to it, but the fact that I've noticed a significant difference on longer approaches suggests that leg fatigue and overall fitness play a role as well. I'm also interested in doing some longer backpacking trips, so I figured this sort of training would synergize as well.

Ted...try box steps (with music!), stadium stairs, ladder at 50d angle....a little imagination and improvisation is tons more fun than the stairstepper at the gym :)

Hey, congrats on the baby! So, there's your weight to strap on for long walks, sit on an ankle and do "horsey" rides, plunk on your stomach/chest and do backside down crab walking around the house till your core starts screaming...

Seriously, look for some of those sexist "mommy and me" workouts and have fun. Best free weight program ever invented are kids.

Haha, thanks H. I did use her for weighted pullups using the baby Bjorn, but the wife wasn't a huge fan of it.

Ted Pinson wrote:Haha, thanks H. I did use her for weighted pullups using the baby Bjorn, but the wife wasn't a huge fan of it.

Gently remind your wife that the "wildness" (active, physical play) of daddies (who ever fills that role) has been shown in studies to be very beneficial, and, they don't do as well in its absence. Ditto close physical contact. Obviously, don't be a jackass and fire them up right when she's just about to get them to sleep, but if you work it right, you can really help mom out a bunch and let her get some down time. It's incredibly tiring, and tiresome having a baby around. Yeah, you acquire the dubious life skill of being able to do everything one handed (or you don't get to eat), but sheesh. Just don't drop them too often, or bounce them off the ceiling. :-)

Haha, thanks for the advice. She loves hanging upside down, so I think she might be a boulderer.

Some ideas for legs/lower body strength. A lot you can do anywhere without equipment.

ashotofadrenaline.net/bodyw…

I am late to the game but thought I’d weigh in:
HIKING/AEROBIC WORK:
1. I recommend aerobic threshold and anaerobic threshold training. These are commonly called called steady state and tempo pace, respectively. Also commonly known as the top of Zone 1 and the top of Zone 3 (out of 5 zones). Aerobic threshold may be something like 3-5 x 10-20 minute “intervals” with 1:00 rest, working at a heartrate of around 120-130 bpm. Anaerobic/lactate threshold may be more like 5-10 x 3-minute intervals with 30 second rest working at a HR around 160-170 bpm. I won’t go into the science behind all of this, as it has to do with energy system efficiency and fuel sources used within the body, and it has been mentioned by several other posters on here.
2. And yes, walking uphill, laterally uphill, and downhill are the best ways to train, but I do agree that, for what your goals are, adding some variety in activity is probably good. I would not shy away from running as ONE of your activities, as it is a great way to train strength endurance in your lower leg muscles.
3. Interval training is not horrible for you. Because of the intensity of effort, it does train the anaerobic system quite well, which is not very specific to your goals. HOWEVER, the aerobic system is ALSO operating in the background during interval training. So if you are pressed for time, doing an occasional intense workout will benefit your aerobic system as well as the anaerobic system. It is not the BEST way to train aerobically, but the two energy systems can be trained in unison.

Here’s a few recent blogs I wrote that may help with some training ideas: peakenergypt.com/training-blog

WEIGHT TRAINING:
As for weight training, rock climbing is really just very specific strength training. So I feel that, for an alpine trad climber, work in the weight room should serve to balance out the specific strength and movements you train while climbing and hangboarding. For an alpine climber, weight training provides strength endurance, body balance, AND provides recovery mechanisms. There are certain ways you can manipulate sets, reps, rest, and exercises to gain endocrine support to kickstart the release of growth hormone and testosterone, both of which are crucial for recovery. You will not get bulkier if there is a large presence of aerobic work in your training, as there is a certain physiological process that takes place at the cellular level that will not allow major hypertrophy.

Here is an old blog I wrote which outlines certain types of circuits and also explains which type of aerobic or threshold workouts to pair them with. peakenergypt.com/training-b…

Finally I will add one more point. Training small ranges of motion (i.e. lower intensity cardio, lower intensity climbing) ALL THE TIME can lead to injury. Even though it may not be specific to your alpine climbing goals, performing exercises with big amplitudes of movement and at a high intensity can help prevent overuse injury down the line. For an alpine climber, this intense type of training should be regularly planned but also doesn’t need to be super frequent (once every 2 weeks, perhaps). Dynamic, powerful boulder problems, heavy, complex lifting protocols (like squats, cleans, bench), very intense, short hill sprints (10 meters) all performed with complete recovery, will provide endocrine support and will serve you well when it comes to long-term injury prevention.

Ted, One more thing. There are some sweet hilly areas in southern Wisconsin that would make some good training grounds if you have a day. Two that I know have good, hilly trails are PIke Lake St Park and the UW Parkside cross country course (Kenosha) Probably some good hills in NW suburb areas as well-- Fox Lake, McHenry area.