Ketosis and Endurance article

Have any of you tried a ketogenic diet with the goal of increasing endurance? The study was done on bikers and they say it's not going to be helpful for sprints, but perhaps longer route climbing would use that metabolism.

It's kind of a pain to reach ketosis naturally but apparently supplements are available which can trigger it without days of low carb eating.

"The drink allowed highly trained endurance athletes to clock up an extra 400 meters distance to their workouts. The supplement works by temporarily switching the primary source of cellular energy from glucose or fat to ketones."

medicalnewstoday.com/articl…

I tried the Keto for 7 weeks. It's fine for slow and long, but I couldn't get it to do more than that for me. I repeat slow. Total waste of time for me and I gained all the weight I had lost (8lbs) back in about 12 days after I switched off it. Good for office workers who want to lose weight or putzing enduro people. I repeat slow. Considering all the effort required to get into and stay in Keto I see no benefit for climbers, not even long routes.

Yeah, this seems like a really bad idea for climbers. Well, anyone TBH.

I did a ketogenic diet for about 4 months over the winter. From my understanding, taking a supplement like MCT oil will temporarily boost your ketone levels, but this alone will not give the benefits of being fat adapted (or keto adapted) on a cellular/metabolic level.

Ketones themselves are a byproduct as fat is metabolized in the liver. In order to reap the benefits of a ketogenic diet, your body must adapt to using fat as the main fuel source. This is achieved only after 3-4 weeks on a very low carb diet (as your body will always prioritize carbs if available). The book, "The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance", is an excellent introduction.

In my experience it was a fast and effective way to lose weight, which indirectly was beneficial for climbing. I did not really notice any significant endurance gains (but I was mostly bouldering at the time).

I thought it was a cool experiment, but ultimately hard to maintain long term because of the necessary rigidity.

I'm not a great climber, but I've lost and kept off 12 lbs with paleo/primal and periods of keto over the last 5 months. I find that it helps control my appetite and provides stable energy through the course of a day. When your objective is a big day in the mountains, like a multi-pitch with a long approach that can be very beneficial. I can go 12 hours with no dip in energy off of bulletproof coffee and some jerky and almonds.

Check out this podcast for climbers using low-carb nutrition plans to good effect:
trainingbeta.com/media/dave…

Your mileage may vary though. A lot of young climbers eat like shit, weigh 135, and send way harder than me. But if you are a 160lb middle aged average climber like me, dropping ten pounds and having stable energy can make a big difference.

BHeller: I would hazard a guess that the majority of the weight you lost was water weight. Keto diets shed water very quickly.

I think it depends on what type of endurance you are looking for. All day climbing endurance, the keto diet may help with the stabilization of energy levels; Similar to long multipitch or alpine adventures it would be beneficial. For endurance routes (red river, maple, etc), I do not think there are any advantages in the keto diet. The longest you will be on route is 20-30 minutes and it would probably be better to just adapt your body to getting better rests on large holds and utilizing a aerobic energy system while climbing vs anaerobic.

In the end, every person's body is different and reacts differently to changes in diet and food. I think the key is finding a diet that keeps your energy level high/stable and lowers inflammation. Cheers.

The "400m further in a 30 min trial for distance study" has n=6 male, n=2 female. The worst performance was a -240 m effect. The largest observed improvement was by the fastest rider (from 44.1-->44.6 km/hr, wow and extra 1.26 km travelled), but the next fastest rider only went 26 m further (~44.1 km/r either way)

Experimental details of interest: riders fasted overnight, and did a 1 h ride at 75% Wmax prior to the 30 min trial. During the 30 min trial, the riders had no way to measure their work output, speed, or cadence they only knew the time left. Before each test riders drank either dextrose and ketones (40% of calories in the drink), or a 1:1:2 mix of dextrose, fructose and maltodextrose. Half the drink was ingested before the 1 h ride, 25% after 30 min of the 1 ride and the rest before the trial.

I can think of lots of reasons why this study should be taken with a grain of salt, but I'm pretty sure if you fasted me overnight and only fed me sugar before and during 1.5 hours of intense riding I'd perform like crap too. Don't confuse academic work in preliminary stages of understanding for immediately actionable nutritional advise.

The interesting thing about this article and this study is that it substituted bHB (d-beta hydroxybutarate) as an energy source. which is a natural substrate from the breakdown of fatty acids in and can enter the krebs cycle, but at a different point than CHO (glucose...)
Its attempting to sidestep the training your body to up-regulate enzymes for the metabolic pathway.
Its not surprising that the athletes were able to function. the increase in 400 meters is really not that impressive overall. it is minimal change, and in a very small sample size.
The key here is, its not a ketogenic diet and lifestyle, which is eating foods that allow/lead the body to create its own ketones in the lvier, but an edible ketone like energy source. This study and supplement, is adding energy to the body, but a different energy source (d-bHB). If it was just ketones, people would have problems... when that happens in the body normally its called diabetes.

I dont see much value in it - yet. I am interested to see a larger scale study of this energy source and its potential value. I dont want to discredit the findings here. It is unique, but not surprising. I think it needs further research and study to hold any true validity.
for climbing.... I dont think it has much to offer. the Ketogenic diet certainly does not.

I found it to be a game changer on longer (8-14 pitch) routes, eating less food, having more energy throughout the day. I was told though that it is harder on your kidneys to produce ketones and isn't really a great idea for the long term.

However, I think it's a great addition to the toolbox.

the Ketogenic diet was developed to treat epilepsy and is supposed to be done under the supervision of a doctor. I know Dave Macleod has used the diet and he says it works for him.

I've been out of the cycling game for a while, but I used to race mtb, road, and cyclocross. I can't imagine anybody actually using a diet like this and cycling (obviously) is an actual endurance sport. Climbing is not.

For weight loss and good energy a diet consisting mostly of lean meats and vegetables has always worked for me. To each his own.

Kereinha, thanks for posting a good reference. Phinney and Volek's book is a great place to start if anyone is interested in educating themselves on the subject of nutritional ketosis.
If you google Peter Attia I'm sure you'll get to his blog (eatingacademy.com) which is another great source of info.

Unfortunately there are quite a few patently false statements in this thread about ketogenic diets.

Not saying that nutritional ketosis is great for everyone but certainly worth looking into if you haven't found your own personal magic formula when it comes to diet/nutrition.

Brent, Adam, Kerinha, and Jer: Thanks for the references!

I just recently started a low carb / occasionally ketogenic diet (primarily to reduce inflammation and cut excess fat). However, I am definitely interested in trying to maintain it for a while to see if there is a net performance benefit for alpine climbing once my body becomes better adapted.

My hypotheses being that the following anticipated advantages will outweigh the anticipated disadvantages:

Advantages:
- Not bonking!
- Lower body weight
- Improved acclimatization
- Not needing to carry food / reduced carry weight
- Not needing to take breaks to eat food

Disadvantages:
- Lower maximum power (my understanding is that this drawback will be relatively insignificant after my body's fat metabolism has become better adapted)
- Being "that guy" who will not eat cake, pizza, etc.

Karl,

I did it for 6 weeks before a trip to Yosemite and concur with your list of pro's and con's. I think there were some mental benefit too. Long multi-pitch is where it really shines.

After the trip I did a 3 day fast with no trouble, just to see what that's all about.

Since the trip I've relaxed. I eat keto for breakfast and lunch and then whatever for dinner. Life's too short to exclude good pizza for the long term.

Dan

So it's funny that this thread has been resurrected, but now that I look back on it, everyone, including me, totally misread that article. It's actually not about ketogenic diets, but ketone supplements that supposedly provide an alternative energy pathway without having to deprive your body of nutrients in order to trigger starvation mode (hint: not good for building strength!).

Ketogenic diets might be ok for other athletes, but climbers in particular should be concerned with its negative effect on bone density and increase in bone fractures. Not to mention kidney stones.

Ted Pinson wrote:without having to deprive your body of nutrients in order to trigger starvation mode (hint: not good for building strength!).

Ketosis is a side effect of not eating carbs, it's about manipulating insulin to create a metabolic change... there's no deprivation of nutrients if done correctly.

normajean wrote:Ketogenic diets might be ok for other athletes, but climbers in particular should be concerned with its negative effect on bone density and increase in bone fractures. Not to mention kidney stones.

I would love to see anything resembling a reliable resource to support this ludicrous claim.

Brent Apgar wrote: I would love to see anything resembling a reliable resource to support this ludicrous claim.

Relative weakness of evidence for decreased bone density can be argued, but given the evidence present i, would not take a chance as a climber.

mercola.com/article/carbohy…

"In studies demonstrating a negative effect, it has been argued that dietary protein (especially in the form of animal based protein) is a primary source of acid ash, which results in the acidification of urine. In order to buffer the urine and maintain acid-base homeostasis, calcium salts are mobilized from the skeleton, resulting in a net calciuria. Over time, this buffering of endogenous acids may contribute to a progressive decline in skeletal mass and, ultimately, lead to osteoporosis."

Hartman, A. L. and Vining, E. P. G. (2007), Clinical Aspects of the Ketogenic Diet. Epilepsia, 48: 31–42. doi:10.1111/j.1528-1167.2007.00914.x

Groff JL, Gropper SS, Hunt SM. Advanced Nutrition and Human Metabolism. 2nd ed. West Publishing Company, 1995; Wiederkehr M, Krapf R. Metabolic and endocrine effects of metabolic acidosis in humans. Swiss Med Wkly. 2001;131:127–132.

At 58; I've had my only success in dieting using Atkins / Paleo but I've recently read that a huge factor is NOT the restriction of carbohydrates but the huge uptick in protein relative to fat and carbs. I now target 1g protein per pound of body weight while still eliminating all the bad carbs and all the bad fat. So basically meat, salad, nuts, avocados and the occasional potato and eliminating cream and cutting way back on cheese. This plus strength training, climbing and running is producing the best results I've seen in myself over 10 years. And I DO miss pizza but after you've successfully done Atkins for years; food discipline comes naturally. Power bouldering is not my target; I work on long Alpine endurance measured in long days. Traing For the New Alpinism discusses some of this as well.

kevin graves wrote:At 58; I've had my only success in dieting using Atkins / Paleo but I've recently read that a huge factor is NOT the restriction of carbohydrates but the huge uptick in protein relative to fat and carbs. I now target 1g protein per pound of body weight while still eliminating all the bad carbs and all the bad fat. So basically meat, salad, nuts, avocados and the occasional potato and eliminating cream and cutting way back on cheese. This plus strength training, climbing and running is producing the best results I've seen in myself over 10 years. And I DO miss pizza but after you've successfully done Atkins for years; food discipline comes naturally. Power bouldering is not my target; I work on long Alpine endurance measured in long days. Traing For the New Alpinism discusses some of this as well.

Thats an excellent diet for both weigh loss and muscle gain (when combined with caloric deficit or caloric surplus). 1-2g of protein (i stick to one) per lb of body weight and simple carb restriction does a lot for muscle gain/preservation and blood sugar control. I've done really well on it dropping body fat while gaining some muscle by alternating cutting and bulking and weigh lifting despite being female.

normajean wrote: Thats an excellent diet for both weigh loss and muscle gain (when combined with caloric deficit or caloric surplus). 1-2g of protein (i stick to one) per lb of body weight and simple carb restriction does a lot for muscle gain/preservation and blood sugar control. I've done really well on it dropping body fat while gaining some muscle by alternating cutting and bulking and weigh lifting despite being female.

There are a series of well documented studies which show that anything north of 0.5-0.8g protein per lb lean body mass is more than ample for building strength in athletes. 1-2g/lb body weight is massively overkill.

See bayesianbodybuilding.com/th… for a rational runthrough of available literature.

normajean wrote: Relative weakness of evidence for decreased bone density can be argued, but given the evidence present i, would not take a chance as a climber. mercola.com/article/carbohy… "In studies demonstrating a negative effect, it has been argued that dietary protein (especially in the form of animal based protein) is a primary source of acid ash, which results in the acidification of urine. In order to buffer the urine and maintain acid-base homeostasis, calcium salts are mobilized from the skeleton, resulting in a net calciuria. Over time, this buffering of endogenous acids may contribute to a progressive decline in skeletal mass and, ultimately, lead to osteoporosis." Hartman, A. L. and Vining, E. P. G. (2007), Clinical Aspects of the Ketogenic Diet. Epilepsia, 48: 31–42. doi:10.1111/j.1528-1167.2007.00914.x Groff JL, Gropper SS, Hunt SM. Advanced Nutrition and Human Metabolism. 2nd ed. West Publishing Company, 1995; Wiederkehr M, Krapf R. Metabolic and endocrine effects of metabolic acidosis in humans. Swiss Med Wkly. 2001;131:127–132.

This is the problem w/ most of the posts in the training and injury prevention forums.

First:
I don't consider Dr. Mercola's blog a bastion of rigorous scientific scrutiny.
In the article you linked he lists a bunch of names supporting the osteoporosis hypothesis... couldn't find any of them in the reference list at the end of the article???

Even still it's pretty clear from article that he's arguing that a high protein diet may have an effect on bone density; which is NOT a ketogenic diet. I wish folks would do some studying first. You're not going to get into a state of ketosis if your protein intake is too high.

So we don't have to worry about osteoporosis.

Kidney stones?
You gave me one link which is basically a meta analysis of how well a ketogenic diet is at treating kids w/ epilepsy.
Within the analysis the authors cite one reference to an actual study on the possibility of a ketogenic diet causing kidney stones.

(I couldn't find a free copy of that study so I have no idea if the authors actually followed a true ketogenic diet w/ the patients but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and assume it that it was a well formulated ketogenic diet)

So where does that leave us according to Furth et all?

If I'm a kid suffering from epileptic seizures (the authors say that the risk is likely higher the younger the patient) then I've got roughly a 5% chance of developing a kidney stone on a ketogenic diet.

I'm not trying to be a dick but as someone who actually works in healthcare and tries to help people improve their quality of life it gets so frustrating to see the vast amounts of bullshit that get regurgitated as "evidence".

This is not an argument for or against any specific diet.
I just wish that folks would be a little more stringent in their critical analysis of a subject before giving other people advice...
But I guess I'm expecting too much, these are the interwebs after all.

Rant done... unless you want to get me started on medical advice posted up in the injuries forum. =)