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Totem vs Ultralight c4's in the purple, green, and red sizes

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
Slogger wrote:Bearbreeder- I believe that there are internally flaring cracks that would not accept nuts and a passively rated cam could be a huge plus, but those cracks do not look to be a case. They look as if they would make bomber, regular-sized nut placements.
The nut placment in the cracks above are not the best ... The flare open up at the back and the nuy can get pushed back into it down the crack and rattle out the bottom

A hex would be absolutely bomber as they tend to be bigger length wise than a nut and can torque im length wise as well

But regardless ... How many MPers carry LARGE red camalot sized nuts these days??? .... So unless you always have the biggest walnuts and rocks the point is moot

;)
Pete Spri · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 347

Lol at those pics. Dude, those right there are nut placements, plain and simple. Sounds like you need to get back to basic nutcraft instead of hoping that a tipped out cam will hold when it walks out of position and moves around in the crack. You will screw your gear up bad falling on a piece like that, it it doesn't pull out of the crack.

And if you really hit a lot of those placements, you should be carrying the right gear for it...which is not a cam, but a big nut or tricam, as you stated.

Pete Spri · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 347
bearbreeder wrote: Have you even done the climb u little whinner? The nuts can rattle out on the larger cracks ... It widens up in the back and the nut may not lock Not to mention that with nuts you may not be able to get the larger sizes it may not get past the lip ... If you knew what an internal flare was you would know this If you actually climbed multi you wouldnt be carrying up big nuts and tricams on every dam climb ... Even at the crag you dont ... But then a person like you wouldnt do the easy beginner climb without wanting to knoe the exact piece of where everything goes on the MP beta anyways MP experts ... "Always carry hand sized nuts and tricams"!!! Go out and climb ... Its a summer weekend ;)
It's all good, clearly you didnt even read my post.

I have climbed for over 20 years now of multipitch with no bolted stuff when I learned, I think I understand how things work. And for as much as you whine about internet experts, you play at trying to be the expert yourself better than anyone on here, so LOL at hypocrisy!

The truth is, in the 1% chance of hitting lipped placements with funnel bottoms, it is far, far better to do nuts on the lip in opposition than a cam placement that is tipped out inside and will likely fail. And like I said, if you are climbing lipped placements in the area you live all the time, you should bring bigger nuts - funnels are NOT placements for tipped out cams, it is a terrible judgement call.

Learn your tools, dont try to make cams work where they arent intended. And to follow up with regard to that, you dont use a BD cam in an active position and hope that if it pulls the passive rating will hold like you are suggesting. You place it in a passive placement for any so-called ability for it to hold its passive rating. Which begs the question of if BD would even agree with you about a passively positioned C4 on it's tips in a tapered funnel, or pulling out of cammed position then holding with a shock load on it's passive rating. They show it on a shelf for the passive rating with a lot of the lobes reinforced on the placement.

Now you can stop arm-chair arguing and go climb.
Brian L. · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2016 · Points: 90

I'll just leave this here, and let you two duke it out.

C4 Passive Placement Instructions

Pete Spri · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 347

You even got shut down by the bd instructions, lol! Mr qualified indeed.

You can stop whining now and go climb, bd just settled your misinformation.

Pete Spri · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 347

Lots of assertions coming out of your...mouth?

Yes, I have fallen plenty on cams and nuts.

You should focus on climbing instead of blogging, yo. At least you have the correct answer now. Have fun.

Pete Spri · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2009 · Points: 347
bearbreeder wrote: God its so phun to post in between laps =P Perhaps you should focus on going out and climbing rather than MPing on this fine summer weekend And try whipping or at least bouncing on a few passive cams .... Give a bit of real life data rather than MP theorizing ;)
It's all good man, I get out once a week with my partners, and once with my kids bouldering/climbing and that is enough for me right now at this stage of life. I've already been through your stage of life/climbing and will be back there again soon. No need to argue against your spew on things you don't know about how I climb and fall. I'll let you have the last whine though, so have at it! Sorry for the thread derail!
Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0
bearbreeder wrote: The nut placment in the cracks above are not the best ... The flare open up at the back and the nuy can get pushed back into it down the crack and rattle out the bottom A hex would be absolutely bomber as they tend to be bigger length wise than a nut and can torque im length wise as well But regardless ... How many MPers carry LARGE red camalot sized nuts these days??? .... So unless you always have the biggest walnuts and rocks the point is moot ;)
Those look like nut placement porn to me. I would set a nut in those in a heartbeat. If you set a nut it isn't going to go in backwards.

I love big nuts I have carried double sets of full range of nuts on multi 1000ft + climbs.

For me cams are last restore always going for passive over active pro, unless the rock breaks a passive nut isn't going to fail. A cam no matter how well it looks can fail.
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
ViperScale wrote: Those look like nut placement porn to me. I would set a nut in those in a heartbeat. If you set a nut it isn't going to go in backwards. I love big nuts I have carried double sets of full range of nuts on multi 1000ft + climbs. For me cams are last restore always going for passive over active pro, unless the rock breaks a passive nut isn't going to fail. A cam no matter how well it looks can fail.
Largest walnut doesnt fit it gets caught at the lip

Next one down goes it but it keeps sliding down the crack ... The interior of the crack is internally flared and hand sized in the back

Even the largest walnuts are around a 0.75-1 camalot size at their widest ... And most folks dont bring em regardless

In the above crack you would need a #2 camalot size to fit the flare perfectly ... But you can get it in because of the lip

The #1 camalot size is the best piece that you can get in short of a hex or tricam (and most folks dont bring those), and even then it may open up somewhat with a slight shift

The nuts you do manage to get in past the lip usually just slide down th rest of crack, even turned sideways ... If it does catch eventually the contact area will often be poor

Thats just one example

;)
Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0

First off you are using way to big of nuts... do you not know how to place them?

You need to place one that is ALOT smaller and comes halfway out of the crack than pull hard on it and it will get stuck in the crack. It isn't going to pop out and will require a nut tool to remove.

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
ViperScale wrote:First off you are using way to big of nuts... do you not know how to place them?
Lol .... You want a video ???

The interior of the crack is HAND SIZED

;)
Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0
bearbreeder wrote: Lol .... You want a video ??? The interior of the crack is HAND SIZED ;)
Who cares? I place nuts in areas like that all the time. I have placed nuts in areas by starting low in a big opening and pull it up before setting it in the crack.

Nuts don't walk like cams if you set them properly.

Try placing maybe a 7 or 8 nut in there.
bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
ViperScale wrote: Who cares? I place nuts in areas like that all the time. I have placed nuts in areas by starting low in a big opening and pull it up before setting it in the crack. Nuts don't walk like cams if you set them properly.
Just for you videos coming up ... Im still at the crag

Fcukang gumbayz

;)
Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0

Where is your video? You try a nut and realize it works perfectly?

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
ViperScale wrote:Where is your video? You try a nut and realize it works perfectly?
Whine whine whine ... It takes time to upload youd do realize little one

youtu.be/6IC3oKO1_B8

The nut slides down the back of the crack, and even if you can catch it on the lip do you really want to focus all the force of the fall on a thin lip

Perhaps you should try it sometime

;)
Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0
bearbreeder wrote: Whine whine whine ... It takes time to upload youd do realize little one The nut slides down the back of the crack, and even if you can catch it on the lip do you really want to focus all the force of the fall on a thin lip Perhaps you should try it sometime ;)
You clearly don't know how to set a nut. Here is a video post on how to place nuts! Play close attention to the part about setting the nut because if you "set" a nut in that crack it will work great. Your just taking a nut that is way to big and running it around in the crack. That is not proper way to place a nut.

Even in your video you make it look like that big nut will fit in one of the spots. Your just not pulling it out to set it so clearly you know it will work and are on purposely doing stupid stuff.

Anyway I am going to sleep have a good night troll!

youtube.com/watch?v=8ia6byV…
Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0

Maybe you are being serious. Nuts don't have to be "perfectly" set going downward. It is ok if they are at an angle, if you expect every placement to be in a perfect direction or it won't hold I kinda feel sorry for you.

Are you limited by places you can climb because every single cam or nut as to be 100% perfect with complete contact and direction etc? Do you not ever place a cam in a horizontal because the direction isn't downward? Besides You can get a nut in that crack at least at a 45 degree angle which would be completely fine in a fall. It isn't going to magically twist out and go backwards and fail. I have fallen on plenty of nuts placed like that without an issue.

Systematic · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2015 · Points: 317
bearbreeder wrote: On a popular beginner climb i gave a bit of rescrub last year Perhaps you should go climb something today and stop MP "experting" ;)
I think what you're showing are good cam placements. I have seen cams open up in the back of a crack, so I know exactly what you mean. In these particular examples (esp. Green) the Totems don't look fully open, though, so I would not expect them to umbrella. I do agree with you that a dual-axle, passively rated cam is a better choice for these placements.

A horizontal with a tapering lip is one of the most bomber camalot (or hex) placements you can find at the gunks. I typically save the totems for parallel to slightly flaring, narrow pockets.
dindolino32 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 25

This is funny to see people get upset about one placement on a route. Why don't you try taking the biggest nut, turn it 90 degrees once it has passed the slot and see what happens? Or just set the cam tight, add a long sling and go. Or, when in doubt, run it out.
BTW I have climbed 1,000,000 routes so I definitely know what I am doing.

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
ViperScale wrote:Maybe you are being serious. Nuts don't have to be "perfectly" set going downward. It is ok if they are at an angle, if you expect every placement to be in a perfect direction or it won't hold I kinda feel sorry for you. Are you limited by places you can climb because every single cam or nut as to be 100% perfect with complete contact and direction etc? Do you not ever place a cam in a horizontal because the direction isn't downward? Besides You can get a nut in that crack at least at a 45 degree angle which would be completely fine in a fall. It isn't going to magically twist out and go backwards and fail. I have fallen on plenty of nuts placed like that without an issue.
you do realize that this is an easy beginner climb which means its actually LOWER ANGLE

so your sideways "set" basically means you are almost setting it OUTWARDS, not "downwards" at all ....

this isnt a horizontal placement, its a VERTICAL placement where theres no good constriction for a smaller nut downwards ... even at your "45 degree angle"

lets see according to your video ...

- direction of pull ... nope ... not in line at all ... you fall DOWNWARDS ... not outwards
- surface contact ... none to minimal ... even if you set it in the flaky lip the contact is less than 1/3-1/2 that of the nut width
- rock quality ... if you set in the lip its the WEAKEST part of the rock ...and the lip is the only part where you may be able to "set" a smaller nut

maybe you fall outwards but i suspect most folks here fall DOWNWARDS

would you like some bounce tests on yr "smaller nut" that you claim will work ... ill be back up in a few days ...

and if youve never had a "set nut" pull or shift, go climb more ... on a wandering route even a "set" nut can pull with enough drag and rope path issues ... not to mention that as you walk past nuts on a diagonal crack you foot can tap it, or some other gear can catch it ...

;)

Mrkb3 wrote: I think what you're showing are good cam placements. I have seen cams open up in the back of a crack, so I know exactly what you mean. In these particular examples (esp. Green) the Totems don't look fully open, though, so I would not expect them to umbrella. I do agree with you that a dual-axle, passively rated cam is a better choice for these placements. A horizontal with a tapering lip is one of the most bomber camalot (or hex) placements you can find at the gunks. I typically save the totems for parallel to slightly flaring, narrow pockets.
in these cracks ive seem the cams fully open ... in the photos above i just gave it a quick flick of the stem, with a bit more aggressive action theyll be open (such as walking the crack and kicking it, a common beginner mistake)

the reason i posted the particular placements above is that this is an easy beginner crack where time and time again ive seen even experienced climbers have cams shift slightly and open up ... never mind beginners who dont knot any better, fail to extend (its a pretty straight climb), get something caught as they walk past, etc ...

i even had one climber use my totems who said "totems dont walk" because he saw the totem video and heard on the internet that common line, and lo and behold that exact green totem shifted to totally open when i cleaned his gear ...

here in squamish internally flared vertical and diagonal sections, while not the most common, are not unknown ... most of the moderate cracks here needs to be gardened out, basically you need a pickaxe to get of all the dirt, roots, and shrubs in the crack

and because it rains so much, many many many decades of water running on the inside of the crack i suspect can hollow it out a bit ...

the good news is that these kind of cracks are bomber for climbing because its basically jugs ... the bad news is that it can be more challenging to protect, especially if you dont bring up larger passive gear

;)

dindolino32 wrote:This is funny to see people get upset about one placement on a route. Why don't you try taking the biggest nut, turn it 90 degrees once it has passed the slot and see what happens? Or just set the cam tight, add a long sling and go. Or, when in doubt, run it out. BTW I have climbed 1,000,000 routes so I definitely know what I am doing.
the biggest nut you can get past the lip might or might not catch eventually turned sideways ... you may have to pull it down pretty far and because of the narrowing of the lip might be hard to inspect ... you may well have poor contact area and be on crystalz

not to mention in the recent "rack advice" and "do you carry nuts" threads ... many MPers dont seem to carry the larger nuts anyways

the thing with walking a crack with slings is that you need to be pretty careful that the sling doesnt get caught on anything as you walk past ... you should clip the sling BELOW you(not above) to minimize the chances of it getting caught as you walk past

as to running it out .. experienced climbers should just SOLO this route in their approach shoes .. the holds are absolutely bomber and you wont fall ..

but this is a BEGINNER climb ... and its great for showing em to place gear in less than ideal situations

and here i though you ate 1,000,000 alpine marmots

;)

-
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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