Subjective nature of climbing grades

Daniel H. Bryant wrote: The problem is that the person with the greatest 'ape factor' will have some advantage....which brings us back to classes again, climbers for the Olympics would have to be classified. There needs to be more discrimination than just age group. There are climbers out there that have prosthetics who are way better climbers than me, but does that now mean they would only qualify for the 'special olympics' cause they are short a limb?

They don't have height based classes in running, they don't need "ape factor" classes in climbing. You either learn to perform with the body you have, or you're not climbing at the same level as those who were born with a more fortunate physical structure for that sport. Some people get to that level easier than others.

Nothing is wrong with opinion based grading. In competition it doesn't matter, because everyone is climbing the same routes.

Daniel H. Bryant wrote: Ok, so the point may be shifting around some, my bad. These are all ideas, nothing more. So how do you grade a route without opinion? A true unbiased grade?

There is no such thing, but there's one thing that smooths it out that you seem to be missing: the consensus part of the grading systems.

Marc801 wrote: There is no such thing, but there's one thing that smooths it out that you seem to be missing: the consensus part of the grading systems.

How so?

Daniel H. Bryant wrote: How so?

You're looking for absolute quantitative data that will support a specific rating and that will be the rating of the climb. Period.

In the real world, someone puts up a route and gives it a potential rating. Usually, typically, that person has a good bit of experience at the grade at various climbing areas. Typically, they're not too far off. Others climb the route. They may agree or disagree with the rating - rated too hard, rated too easy, spot on, maybe all three. After a while a consensus emerges that yeah, that route is a 5.whatever because it's about the same difficulty as other 5.whatevers. In engineering terms, it's smoothing the data to a Z value.

It's messy, inexact, subject to individual variance - and you're never going to change that with the nonsense of accounting for all the variables you and others have mentioned.
Examples:
Lynn Hill is relatively short and her wingspan isn't huge compared to larger climbers, yet you know of her accomplishments. Germain here is her original rating of The Nose - 13b. Modern consensus puts it at 13d/14a.
In a discussion once about reach and climbing with my girlfriend-now-wife and me, Lynn said "There are no reach problems, only power problems."

Recently someone did a second ascent of a Sharma (or was it Ondra?) 15a. They felt maybe it was 14d instead.

You're talking about solving a problem that isn't really a problem as it is at the heart and essentially defines a subjective rating system. It's not a new idea and has been discussed over countless beers for the last 60 or more years.

Most of us would just rather climb.

Marc801 wrote: You're looking for absolute quantitative data that will support a specific rating and that will be the rating of the climb. Period. In the real world, someone puts up a route and gives it a potential rating. Usually, typically, that person has a good bit of experience at the grade at various climbing areas. Typically, they're not too far off. Others climb the route. They may agree or disagree with the rating - rated too hard, rated too easy, spot on, maybe all three. After a while a consensus emerges that yeah, that route is a 5.whatever because it's about the same difficulty as other 5.whatevers. In engineering terms, it's smoothing the data to a Z value. It's messy, inexact, subject to individual variance - and you're never going to change that with the nonsense of accounting for all the variables you and others have mentioned. Examples: Lynn Hill is relatively short and her wingspan isn't huge compared to larger climbers, yet you know of her accomplishments. Germain here is her original rating of The Nose - 13b. Modern consensus puts it at 13d/14a. In a discussion once about reach and climbing with my girlfriend-now-wife and me, Lynn said "There are no reach problems, only power problems." Recently someone did a second ascent of a Sharma (or was it Ondra?) 15a. They felt maybe it was 14d instead. You're talking about solving a problem that isn't really a problem as it is at the heart and essentially defines a subjective rating system. It's not a new idea and has been discussed over countless beers for the last 60 or more years. Most of us would just rather climb.

Are you sure?

The best grading would be to get a bunch of different people to climb every route in the world and order them in what they think is easy / hard. Humans are pretty good at saying A is harder than C but B is easier than A. Than all you have to do is climb a few of the routes and see who's grading matches what you think and use their comparison for the rest of the climbs!

Daniel H. Bryant wrote: Are you sure?

Stop it. You're dangerously close to displaying that typical internet passive/aggressive behavior where, when a person's original thesis is basically rejected by most people replying, they're just trying to keep the dying thread going.

Yes, I'm sure.

I use a pretty simple grading system that I customized for myself.

There are two ratings that I use.

I can do it, And

I can't do it.

Pretty straight forward and very easy to apply. This system works for everyone and then you don't have to use all the complicated and meaningless numbers that only confuse folks.

You should try it and then climbing becomes just that, Climbing. I think the fun factor goes up to.

Marc801 wrote: Stop it. You're dangerously close to displaying that typical internet passive/aggressive behavior where, when a person's original thesis is basically rejected by most people replying, they're just trying to keep the dying thread going. Yes, I'm sure.

No reason to get butt hurt dude.
Besides, the grades can be classified relative to a standard, but no one wants to do it....me included.

^^^ Ha, Marc801 has been in this online forum thing pretty long. I'm pretty sure his skin is superthick.