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Black Diamond ATC guide mode lowering

Original Post
matt-jensen · · Hermosa Beach, CA · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 10

Was wondering who has any expierience in different effective methods to lower partners from a top belay using the guide mode. And more specifically with 2 climbers following. I have experimented with many different setups using weights(not people) and have come to a couple conclusions. They may be wrong so just putting it out into the community for a response. I have tried the setup like the picture here and I don't really like it(redirect brake strands up and down to a friction hitch). I have setup the same way except instead of redirecting the brake strand up to the master point I run it down into another tube style belay devise on my harness. This effectively is just like belaying through the beaner down to my harness once my guide mode releases. That way I can keep one climber on belay locked off while lowering the second.

If your using a friction hitch as a backup it's very difficult to control each rope independently. Which is why I went to trying the 2nd belay devise for control. I guess it's possible to redirect both brake strands up to independent lockers with munters but it seems like the same thing to me with more complexity.

I know people generally underestimate how much friction is in the system and things happen fast. I have quite a bit of expierience here as my climbing partner of 12 plus years is 6'3 220lbs. I have to use a 10.2mm just for lowering control.

If anyone sees any obvious defects with this description or how it would possibly fail I'm open to suggestions. I have tested this with 2 different 90lb weights on each strand of the rope and have control of locking and lowering independently. I have been unable to find any technique describing how to handle this specific situation.

Hope I described that well enough. I could take pictures but would take a while to setup here at home again

BD ATC Guide Mode Lowering

FrankPS · · Atascadero, CA · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 276
matt-jensen wrote:Was wondering who has any expierience in different effective methods to lower partners from a top belay using the guide mode. And more specifically with 2 climbers following. I have experimented with many different setups using weights(not people) and have come to a couple conclusions. They may be wrong so just putting it out into the community for a response. I have tried the setup like the picture here and I don't really like it(redirect brake strands up and down to a friction hitch). I have setup the same way except instead of redirecting the brake strand up to the master point I run it down into another tube style belay devise on my harness. This effectively is just like belaying through the beaner down to my harness once my guide mode releases. That way I can keep one climber on belay locked off while lowering the second. If your using a friction hitch as a backup it's very difficult to control each rope independently. Which is why I went to trying the 2nd belay devise for control. I guess it's possible to redirect both brake strands up to independent lockers with munters but it seems like the same thing to me with more complexity. I know people generally underestimate how much friction is in the system and things happen fast. I have quite a bit of expierience here as my climbing partner of 12 plus years is 6'3 220lbs. I have to use a 10.2mm just for lowering control. If anyone sees any obvious defects with this description or how it would possibly fail I'm open to suggestions. I have tested this with 2 different 90lb weights on each strand of the rope and have control of locking and lowering independently. I have been unable to find any technique describing how to handle this specific situation. Hope I described that well enough. I could take pictures but would take a while to setup here at home again
Matt,

First, it's a "biner," not a "beaner."

Next, I hope/assume you're not talking about trying to lower two climbers at the same time? That does not sound like a good idea, and more potential for loss of control.

There is a "weighted lower" and an "unweighted lower." Not sure which condition you are referring to.

If you need to lower one climber mid-climb, tie a blocking knot in the other climber's rope or clove hitch his brake strand to a carabiner on the anchor, tell him to stop climbing, then lower the other climber.

Are you talking about lowering from the top of a single-pitch climb? If so, just have each climber rappel, which would be much easier than lowering in guide mode.

Your setup in the photo looks correct to me for lowering one climber in a weighted lower.

Edit: I think both the Reverso and ATC Guide instruction manuals warn that when one climber has fallen or weighted the rope, the device may not automatically lock if the other climber falls.
Brian L. · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2016 · Points: 90

Have you tried a munter on the re-direct biner? That is the method black diamond illustrates on the device instructions.

Also, I haven't played around with this, but only lowering one climber at a time seems like a very good idea to me. Tie off the 2nd climbers brake before you do anything else, as Frank said.

Ted Pinson · · Chicago, IL · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 252

Get a DMM Pivot.

Ryan Huetter · · Mammoth Lakes, CA · Joined Apr 2006 · Points: 395

Some things to note:

-As already pointed out- lowering two people at once is a bad idea. No need to try to cut corners here.

-Don't really understand what you mean by redirecting through another ATC- you then have to break the auto-block correct? Sounds like it could be really jerky, and still doesn't address the main reason behind having a friction hitch back up

-A backup is a requirement of lowering in this configuration (as opposed to being on the ground) since you'll have to deal with all the fun rope management that comes with top managed belays, etc.

matt-jensen · · Hermosa Beach, CA · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 10

Let me clarify, not looking to lower both at the same time, thinking about the possibility that only one climber needs to be lowered and not the other. And when researching there was no clear answer. Sorry about the spelling error. No harm meant.

matt-jensen · · Hermosa Beach, CA · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 10

I'm basically just putting them on belay as though they were on top rope but I'm higher than them.

Note: this is all being done with weight and not people. I'm a very conservative climber and would never experiment on a climb with people.

RangerJ · · Denver, CO · Joined Jan 2012 · Points: 65

There are plenty of situations where lowering 2 (even 3) climbers at a time is necessary and can be done safely. However, those situations are more often on lower angle terrain or snow, and an ATC in guide mode is not the preferred tool for the job.

To the OP's question - You could use a munter with both strands as your backup, but the limitation would obviously be that you would not have independent control. You could also use a super munter to add more friction and control.

grega Albrechtsen · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2006 · Points: 15

Its hard to tell from the picture but be sure the top two carabiner's (redirect and PAS) are clipped to the true "top-shelf". It looks like they are clip through both strands heading up to the same pro. You need to clip to a strand from each piece.

matt-jensen · · Hermosa Beach, CA · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 10

More clarification: that picture is not me. That is from the American Alpine yada yada and the method BD is saying to use. It does not address the situation of lowering 1 climber while the other is not being lowered.

I do appreciate the feedback but I guess I'm looking for someone who has actually done it,

I will post a picture of my setup when I can get it back together.

"A pictures worth a thousand words but a word don't mean a thing" - S.Simpson

matt-jensen · · Hermosa Beach, CA · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 10

@grega I do agree there is a definite flaw with that photo. If the piece blows you're clipped around its game over. I would definitely clip through the chords going to 2 pieces for redundancy

FrankPS · · Atascadero, CA · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 276
matt-jensen wrote: It does not address the situation of lowering 1 climber while the other is not being lowered.
FrankPS wrote: If you need to lower one climber mid-climb, tie a blocking knot in the other climber's rope or clove hitch his brake strand to a carabiner, tell him to stop climbing, then lower the other climber.
Jack Servedio · · Raleigh, NC · Joined Feb 2016 · Points: 35

It's definitely safe to do but seems unnecessary since when guide mode is inverted through a redirect like that, it is acting the same way as if you were belaying from your harness. I get wanting remove the munter from the anchor shelf since it is pretty much always a cluster, but what about replacing the ATC on your harness with an autoblock or prussik?

As an aside - outside of practicing it (with the munter), I have never had to lower a second for real on guide mode except ratcheting out a few inches here and there. Unless my partner gets hurt - I just have them pull on gear to get up or jug. If there is any real possibility of needing to lower, I belay from my harness or use a grigri.

matt-jensen · · Hermosa Beach, CA · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 10

Thanks frank, I thought about that too. But just to let you know how my mind works what if the climber tied off becomes unable to climb as well after loading the clove hitch. Kinda f'ed there. I know I'm over thinking this and I do that on purpose. I don't play especially when people trust their lives with me.

I also get that this is not a setup for extremely tech climbing where there is a lot of fall potential. Just trying to be ready for all type of disaster :)

Some great observations and suggestions people thanks

FrankPS · · Atascadero, CA · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 276
matt-jensen wrote:Thanks frank, I thought about that too. But just to let you know how my mind works what if the climber tied off becomes unable to climb as well after loading the clove hitch. Kinda f'ed there. I know I'm over thinking this and I do that on purpose.
Matt,

If the tied off climber weights the clove, all he has to do is move upward a couple of inches to unweight it. Then, since your other climber is on the ground or clipped in to the lower anchor, you can proceed to lower the formerly tied off climber (after you undo the clove).

Also, it's likely the clove hitch will not be loaded, as the belay device will probably hold him.

As a last resort, if it makes you feel better, you could tie off that climber with a munter-mule combination, so you could release him if he weights the rope where it's tied off.

Thanks for letting me play!
Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480
matt-jensen wrote:I'm basically just putting them on belay as though they were on top rope but I'm higher than them. .
Sounds like you're redirecting not in guide mode?

If you doing a redirect you can lower one follower while the other is tied off with a munter mule.
FrankPS · · Atascadero, CA · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 276
Bill Kirby wrote: Sounds like you're redirecting not in guide mode? If you doing a redirect you can lower one follower while the other is tied off with a munter mule.
Yeah, I don't understand that comment by him, either, Bill. The title of the thread is "Black Diamond ATC guide mode lowering."
Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480
FrankPS wrote: Yeah, I don't understand that comment by him, either, Bill. The title of the thread is "Black Diamond ATC guide mode lowering."
Haha.. I like when you wrote "Thanks for letting me play" haha..

I know right? I also liked and I'm paraprashing: I've played with many different setups in guide mode

What does that mean?
Brian L. · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2016 · Points: 90
FrankPS wrote: Yeah, I don't understand that comment by him, either, Bill. The title of the thread is "Black Diamond ATC guide mode lowering."
Sounded to me like he's using a 2nd ATC, in place of a friction hitch.

So he redirects through a biner like the picture shows, unblocks the guide atc, and lows through a 2nd one.

Problem being, you're now carrying a 2nd atc all the time, for a situation that rarely happens. Just carry a prusik loop, and use it to back up your rappels too.
matt-jensen · · Hermosa Beach, CA · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 10

Yes Brian you got it!
And I ALWAYS carry a 2nd atc. YOU NEVER KNOW HAHA. 6 pitches up, thin air, tired hands, stress, wind, yelling, oops there it goes. And thanks for letting me bounce ideas off you guys

matt-jensen · · Hermosa Beach, CA · Joined Jan 2014 · Points: 10

I guess in reality the simple way would be to say is it bad form to run the brake strands into my second atc on my harness, completely go open on the guide mode and control each climber independently with my 2nd.

Munter-mule......ill give it a go and see

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

General Climbing
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