Other than the "normal" stuff, what would you teach a new outdoor climber?

Rick Blair wrote: No where does the OP say he is sending people out to lead climbers after giving them some advice. His climbing club is "training" people to do this, I'm sure the club has their procedures. Lighten up people.

Nor does he say that the club has procedures or that there is more to this "training" than a weekend trip.

In a dearth of information, I'd rather exercise caution than lighten up...

Kent Richards wrote: In a dearth of information, I'd rather exercise caution than lighten up...

Fair enough.

Andy? What's up? Can you tell us more about your training and your club.

Your comment about tight shoes and wild swings when top rope redirects fail have people concerned.

Also rap'ing topropes with bags. Why not lower them or leave them at the top?

climbing friend,

teach them to abstain from all sexual activity and begin hangboarding immediately. progress deep into the 5.8 and 5.9 grades depends on it.

also, fishheads from bucket and cheesesteaks of quite nice high quality

We don't know the specifics of this "training" like experience level of the participants, amount of time to be invested, etc.. Funny thing is I can totally see someone taking some "indoor climbers" (aka complete beginners) out for a few hours of instruction and now they are ready to lead trips. This sounds like a total disaster. As someone said above "Climbing is dangerous." After 23 years in this sport, I wholeheartedly agree. Climbers need to always be super vigilant. Its the simple situations too, like setting up a toprope, where things go wrong. My advice would be to ditch this plan ASAP.

Insert your tip here: That's what she said!

Don't top rope the first pitch of multipitch routes.

Don't camp out on the same route the entire day.

Don't leave up a TR setup if you're not going to use it.

Bring gear so you're not mooching off your friend. Buy a rope, static or dynamic and/or some webbing after shoes, harness, locker and belay device.

You're not ready to go out on your own until we do this a couple more times.

Don't buy climbing shit from REI if you aren't completely sure that you are going to use it (because if you take it back they destroy it)

Bolts are evil--clip'em when ya see'em.

Rick Blair wrote: Andy? What's up? Can you tell us more about your training and your club. Your comment about tight shoes and wild swings when top rope redirects fail have people concerned.

Absolutely; please everyone, pardon my "dearth of information" (as another poster labeled it), this was just an attempt to keep the post succinct and avoid boring everyone with small details.

The goal of this 5 day trip (not just a weekend) is to enable our certified climbing leaders to essentially have confidence in a crew of assistants - for lack of a better term. First of all, we should all here on MP recognize that in a club environment you often get two types of "new" climbers. Those that truly are new, can't even belay or tie in; and those that know the those skills (sometimes extremely well) but have not climbed outside. Our goal is to build up the skills of those experienced-but-not-outside climbers such that they can also participate in double checking the anchors, as well as having a more "trained eye" in looking for other risks around the crag (the example posted above about recognizing a dangerous pendulum is an example of this risk identification training we wish to do). No, we are not taking new outdoor climbers and turning them into guides, LOL.

The comment about the "popping" redirect is not based on experience of mine, but nevertheless a risk that should be assessed. Especially with new climbers, can you really expect they will climb to the redirect and resist the temptation to use a piece of aid by pulling on that cam trigger? Many of you will dismiss this scenario but it is certainly possible, which is why any redirect setup should consider the consequences of a failed piece.

Tight shoes? Well, my club doesn't have thousands of dollars laying around. Sometimes eight people go on a trip and five of them are size 10. We only have a few pairs of shoes of each size, so we might ask some people to squeeze into a more normal rock shoe fit. Most importantly, that line was meant to be a joke. But of course, in true MP fashion - people cherry picked whatever line they can find, abandoned common sense to read it literally, and then used it as ammunition for their flamethrower (this is not directed at you, Rick, who was kind in your response! :)

I always expect some flamethrowing on MP. The jerkish comments are not out of place, I have no problem with that. Please though, exercise some common sense when replying. The idea that my club would be training brand new climbers to be solo trip leaders is ridiculous, and simple critical thinking would tell you that; there should be no need for me to state it explicitly with all the minutia of our club rules attached. Furthermore, when abandoning thought in order to criticize, consider what impression you create for the climbing community. I have no problem knowing the person next to me at the crag is a jerk; knowing the person next to me at the crag lacks common sense and rationality is far more concerning - that means you Kent and doligo.

Andy P. wrote:Please though, exercise some common sense when replying. The idea that my club would be training brand new climbers to be solo trip leaders is ridiculous, and simple critical thinking would tell you that; there should be no need for me to state it explicitly with all the minutia of our club rules attached. Furthermore, when abandoning thought in order to criticize, consider what impression you create for the climbing community. I have no problem knowing the person next to me at the crag is a jerk; knowing the person next to me at the crag lacks common sense and rationality is far more concerning - that means you Kent and doligo.

And perhaps before getting all defensive maybe realize that the thing you think is ridiculous and obvious with critical thinking (bolded above) has happened in the past and not at all unlikely.

Andy P. wrote: The comment about the "popping" redirect is not based on experience of mine, but nevertheless a risk that should be assessed. Especially with new climbers, can you really expect they will climb to the redirect and resist the temptation to use a piece of aid by pulling on that cam trigger?

The scenario you describe above clearly contradict your original statement

Andy P. wrote: Understanding what happens if your redirect piece pops with a loaded rope (the pendulum is always surprisingly huge, IMO).

Butthurt much? I happen to have had led trips in club environment similar to what you are describing and know exactly what you were talking about and gave you benefit of doubt of actually giving you useful advice based on experience (like time management + keeping climbers engaged). If you are thin-skinned, avoid asking for advice on the interwebs. And here is another based on personal experience advice: avoid at any costs TR setups that involve pendulums (redirects) with beginners. Beginners seem to have very poor body position awareness, and inevitably do end up swinging awkwardly and hit stuff. If you do end up having setups like that, make them wear helmets. Actually make them wear helmets at all times, some people are just top heavy and end up falling upside down. You'll look dorky, but that would save you from ruining someone's (and your) climbing day.

Marc801 wrote:1. Make sure they understand that if they are in a position of leadership and "leading" a trip, the safety and lives of the people they are leading are their responsibility.

Which is why "You tie it ,you try it"

Time savings not withstanding,walkoff is not an option when setting up a rope for others to climb on.

Andy P. wrote:The goal of this 5 day trip (not just a weekend) is to enable our certified climbing leaders to essentially have confidence in a crew of assistants - for lack of a better term.

What is a certified climbing leader?

Inform them if they are cleaning an overhanging route they should back-clean on top-rope (or skip cleaning a higher draw, clean the rest, and climb back up higher before swinging out). Otherwise, they risk swinging into the ground or other undesirable objects.

I have seen a few close calls and one person deck cleaning and swinging right into the ground because they are not aware of the physics of the rope stretch and pendulum.

"The goal is to train indoor climbers to lead trips for the club outdoors".

I'm sorry, but I side with the critics on this one, just based on your willingness to type that sentence.

Unless you have some fabulous arrangements at your gym, indoor climbers will have not had the opportunity to learn diddly squat about outside climbing. BUT, that doesn't mean they can't learn. Inside. On the ground. THEN, find something to take weight, five feet off the ground and practice some more, THEN do the five day trip, and they should quickly realize just how different it is, and be totally hooked like the rest of us. :-)

When it's just some people getting together to get out on some real rock, and take a gym friend on their first trip, that's what all of us do. But "leading" a group means taking full responsibility for people (presumably including noobs) who are putting blind faith in your trustworthiness.

By which organization are these climbers certified as leaders? Having your "lead tag" from the gym really doesn't hold its weight when being responsible for the lives of others on the real rock.

ChadMartino wrote:By which organization are these climbers certified as leaders? Having your "lead tag" from the gym really doesn't hold its weight when being responsible for the lives of others on the real rock.

Wait the lead tag from the gym isn't required to lead outside? I knew I was doing something wrong all these years!

J Marsella wrote:VIperScale: where can you get an outdoor belay tag? I have been waiting to climb outside until I was appropriately certified and the people at my gym keep putting me off saying that there is no such thing, but I don't believe them-- I have been to outdoor climbing zones (just to see how it works, as I am not yet certified to climb there yet) and have seen climbing people with their tags on their harnesses so I know it's real! Please advise.

Qualifying for an outdoor belay tag is a service I offer. Just come down to the Wichitas, pay me $100 bucks, and spend a day belaying me. I'll offer up a nice little tag at the end of the day- if I survive. I'll even laminate it for you ;)

Henry Holub wrote: Qualifying for an outdoor belay tag is a service I offer. Just come down to the Wichitas, pay me $100 bucks, and spend a day belaying me. I'll offer up a nice little tag at the end of the day- if I survive. I'll even laminate it for you ;)

DON'T listen to him, he's a fake!!!!

I'm a real outdoor lead tag provider, UIAA aproved and CE certified, just give me your adress and your credit card number and i'll send you one.

EDIT: I also do +8000 mountaineering, A5 aid lead, Aid top roping, and free solo belayer (for belaying a free soloist) tags. If anyone is intrested they are $100 each (free shipping).

Aleks Zebastian wrote:climbing friend, teach them to abstain from all sexual activity and begin hangboarding immediately. progress deep into the 5.8 and 5.9 grades depends on it.

Well this explains what I've been doing wrong.

You should consider hiring an experienced guide for this outing.