First trad rack- nuts and cams or double of cams?

Brian L. wrote:Actually, here's a question about the DMM offets: how are they in non-flaring placements? I see a lot of people saying they only use these, but it seems like in non-flairing placements you're potentially giving up a lot of surface contact.

They are not the most confidence inspiring in non-flaring placements. Where I climb, though, there are few enough of those that I mostly carry offsets. Reason being that smaller cams will usually protect these areas if I feel I can't skip the placement. I've also supplemented the offsets with a few small-medium regular nuts when I was worried.

Emmett Wynn wrote:DMM nuts are better than most cams. The wallnuts are sweet but the Alloy Offsets 7-11 are unreal with the ease and (at least apparent) strength of placement. Highly recommend singles of cams to 3 inches (maybe even skip the really small stuff at first) and then DMM Walnuts and Offsets

I was going through my set to mark them and was shocked at how high the strength rating was (12 kn, even for the little guy!)...higher than most cams and much higher than cams in that size range.

grog m wrote:I am going to be the black sheep and say DONT GET NUTS. As a beginner you wont like placing them and when you do they will probably not be good placements. Double cams

You're not the black sheep, just the ignorant one. A bomber nut is better than a bolt--it is as good as the rock (and the wire), you know the history, you're not dependent upon the expertise of the person who put in the bolt. The question is NOT whether you buy nuts in addition to cams, it's when you buy cams to augment the nuts. Only an utter fool would start up 95%+ of climbs without nuts (excepting the Creek or similar stuff).

'Ha! tricams .....yuck' John, John, John, we've probably been through this before on NEClimbs, but tri-cams work where nothing else will. Was on a climb in the 'Daks on Sun. where I put a #2 in an odd shaped pod where 3/4s of the piece was hanging outside the crack, looked weird as hell, and it was totally bomber. Maybe not the gear to learn on when it matters, but mastery of the tri-cam=mastery of pro. For nuts I've always used WC Rocks and Wallnuts, but when I'm stripping the rack for weight to go way back in the Dak hinterlands I dump the #6 and up nuts, knowing the tri-cams can cover the same thing.

personal attacks necessary? geeze, just giving my 2cents to a beginner. Youre welcome to disagree with me but its going to take more than personal ancedotes and stories. "In God we trust, all others bring data"

a bomber nut is better than a bolt - a bomber bolt is better than a nut? works both ways...

just looked at your profile, youre old school so it makes sense you like passive pro

grog m wrote:I am going to be the black sheep and say DONT GET NUTS. As a beginner you wont like placing them and when you do they will probably not be good placements. Double cams

I'll go ahead and respectfully disagree.

As a newer leader I noticed on my first lead's I was constantly grabbing for cam's before anything else. When I couldn't fit a cam, then I'd grab a nut - which would end up being bomber. Basically I wasn't recognizing good nut placements off the bat. I since forced myself to start looking for passive placement's, instead of automatically pulling out a cam. The quality of my placements have improved a lot since, as well as the time it takes me to get a good piece in.

As a 10b climber OP probably isn't going to be challenged by the climbing moves on the easy trad routes he's doing. These routes typically have a lot of very good, and often no-hand's stances. This is the time to work out how to place nut's, and how to ID a good placement quickly.

Same thing goes for cam's, too. Either way you have to learn what's good and what isn't. Learn it while climbing easy stuff, so you can rely on it when the climbing get's harder.

If you really don't want to spend a lot of money on nuts, try these: campsaver.com/pro-nut-set-1…

Get a set of nuts. I prefer DMM, but whatever you get, practice using them on the ground so you know how to judge a placement. Nothing gives me as much confidence before a crux as a solidly placed nut.

one thing i notice about newbies that mostly use cams is that they dont actually LOOK at placements very well ..

they see a crack and they jam a cam in ... plug and pray while getting pumped on easy stuff

often the stems are perpendicular, or end up that way as newbies often have extension issues ... they jam cams in non parallel cracks (good thing camalots are rated passively), and they dont look at the rope path of the intricacies of the crack itself

using nuts forces you to look at a crack and the constrictions, and to find the restful stances ... and to set and TEST those nuts (all beginners should set their nuts with a good downward pull and a slight outward pull to test) ... not to mention extend them if needed (cant just clip the cam biner)

newbies should learn how to use cams ... but when starting off they should look for EVERY good nut placement at the stances and see if they can get one in ...

oh and newbies should downclimb everyone of those moderate routes they lead up

;)

What about some hexes instead of some big cams? Personaly i like tricams but you should try them out and see if you feel comfortable using them, i know some people don't.

Answering the OP, i think you should definitely get some nuts, i have some BD Stoppers, work just fine.

If you already have some sport qwickdraws they should work fine for now, if you need to extend a placement just use two, but i would definitely buy some slings and make some alpines.

Really depends on what and where you are climbing.

1 Set of Nuts and 1 Set of Cams 0.5 - 3.0 BD C4 will work for alot of easy starting routes.

Tricams are nice (would not get them for a starting set) if you live in certain areas and I know plenty of routes where I live that they are pretty much a requirement but it all depends on where you live.

From there maybe add extra 1 - 0.5 than slowly add bigger / smaller cams as needed based on what you are climbing.

I currently have doubles from 3.0 - 0.5 and singles in the 0.3-0.1 and 4.0 size. I love nuts and have alot of extra ones since they are cheap and don't cost much.

You may be able to get by with using quick draws (make sure u don't have sharp spots on the biners) but likely want to get some alpine draws at some point.

grog m wrote:personal attacks necessary? geeze, just giving my 2cents to a beginner. Youre welcome to disagree with me but its going to take more than personal ancedotes and stories. "In God we trust, all others bring data" a bomber nut is better than a bolt - a bomber bolt is better than a nut? works both ways... just looked at your profile, youre old school so it makes sense you like passive pro

Being old school doesn't mean you like passive pro...

People who diss old school and trad piss me the fuck off.

Well back in the day passive pro is all there was - hence my reference.

As for getting "pissed the fuck off" - dont let your jimmies get rustled so easily

Brian L. wrote:Actually, here's a question about the DMM offets: how are they in non-flaring placements? I see a lot of people saying they only use these, but it seems like in non-flairing placements you're potentially giving up a lot of surface contact.

I'm one of those people who (mostly) in the "offsets only" camp. My reasoning is as follows:

1. I usually only carry 1 set of nuts on any given route.

2. Offsets work better most of the time at the places I climb (PNW granite).

3. If you need a regular nut and only have an offset, the offset will usually still work well enough. Yes, you lose some surface contact, but in a good bottleneck placement in solid rock this doesn't matter that much. But if you need an offset nut and only have a regular nut, you are probably hosed.

4. Also, a straightforward placement, where a regular nut works best and an offset is wobbly, will often take an Alien reasonably well. So that can sub in for the regular nut. But for the really funky placements, truly the only thing that works is an offset nut.

5. So if you only have one set of nuts, offsets are the way. For case where you are carrying a second set of nuts, take a set of offsets and a set of regulars for maximum options. I do often supplement by smallest offsets with BD microstoppers for maximized options if I'm expecting a lot of RP work.

6. My preferred offset rack for general free climbing is Peenuts 2-5, and DMM Alloy Offsets 7-9. Only 7 nuts, and covers a wide range. I find that I don't have need for the largest sizes, and also that peenuts are more versatile and durable than brassies for general free climbing.

Note that I don't think that this approach would be the best thing for a brand-new trad leader. So this post is aimed at the OP. Learning on regular nuts would be easier, simpler, and a better starting point.

Placing an offset in an even placement is fairly tricky and sketchy...not sure I'd want to learn that way. Having a set of regular and offsets is not a bad thing.

City Dweller wrote: Get off my lawn!

Remember when a bowl of soup cost a nickel?

even with offsets you still need a few "regular" nuts ...

for the simple reason that offsets arent too easy to push up the wire ... something youll eventually have to do on multi when the hangers are missing

ALWAYS bring a few nuts that can do this

;)

I'll jump in for the learn how to place nuts team. As stated they are inexpensive and its an invaluable skill to have since cams don't always work. Plus if you bail when you bite off more than you can chew the dollar signs won't be running through your head possibly leading to poor choices.

As for

grog m wrote:As for getting "pissed the fuck off" - dont let your jimmies get rustled so easily

I'd like you to get on one of Johns routes and not let your jimmies get all rustled. Dudes got more experience and "nuts" then you'll earn in a lifetime.

Agree with the sentiment of build slowly unless you find a screaming deal on a whole rack.

Also, I've noticed myself drifting away from regular nuts and mostly using the offsets (DMM sizes 3 - 11).

You will (should) often climb with an experienced partner flush with gear (especially when getting started). A set of nuts and cams in your brand of preference in BD equivalent .5 - 2 will get you off to a good start. Fill out the rest of your rack of the day with partner's gear.

Eventually you want the full set from .2 - however big you need for your type of climbing...4 is usually as big as I want to climb. Many partners like it when you have camelots in the medium to big sizes.

I dont think I've contributed anything new...

It's ok. Consensus building is reassuring. ;)

Jim Corbett wrote: John, John, John, we've probably been through this before on NEClimbs, but tri-cams work where nothing else will.

RE: Tricams. They aren't required for a basic rack, per se; you dont need them to learn. However, I do love them, and am a firm believer in everyone owning pink and red.

The reason they are always on my rack, is that they really are game changers that can take a route from an R rating to normal, or an X to an R. They should not be underestimated in those situations, and for just those situations alone I think pink, red, and sometimes brown are worth carrying on your rack. I just got black (.25) and think it may fit in that group too... which would put you at the full Tricam Evo set (.25, .5, 1, 1.5).

If you want to learn them, buy pink and red and then decide if you like them enough to buy more. Buy the Evo option as it gives you an additional placement option.

Nuts sometimes are better to have than double of cams ... so light I often carry them on sport routes too if pushing grade or looking to practice my placements.