New petzl gri gri

John Wilder wrote: You don't? Once I started climbing on 9.2s and 9.4s, I stopped using a plate device for multi-pitch belaying. I've been using a gri-gri2 exclusively since it came out and a cinch before that for several years. I switched after I talked to several people in the industry who told me that it is likely impossible to catch a FF2 with a skinny line and basically any plate device.

I took a pretty high factor fall. 10-15 above the anchor, the only thing between me and my belayer was a draw clipped to the anchor. So not quite 2, but high.

We had a brand new 9.4, as in, uncoiled that morning. He caught my just fine with an ATC.

Yes, but the problem with FF2 falls vs. FF 1.8 falls is not just the substantial impact that has to be withstood, it is the fact that unless correctly handled, the ATC will supply almost no braking friction in a FF 2 fall, and most of the assisted-locking devices will be no better.

The advantage of the Grigri in this situation is that the belayer doesn't have to belay one way until the first piece is clipped and another way afterwards. Perhaps the biggest concern in this regard is a fall that wasn't supposed to be FF 2 but turns into one because the so-called "jesus piece" turns out to be a "judas iscariot" piece instead. In this case, the ATC belayer is in a very bad place.

Improvement in ropes, which are likely to continue, have made the Grigri increasingly practical and more and more widely used for trad climbing, especially as old-fashioned belaying skills that might have given some advantage to ATC's inevitably decline through lack of practice and the automation of the process. Nonetheless, if you are sketching above a string of brassies, being belayed by a Grigri ought to lower your confidence in the system.

rgold wrote:Since the simul'd most of the route, how much use the Grigri actually got is an interesting question...

Since a Grigri is an essential tool for high-end simul-climbing, I'd speculate quite a bit.

Personally I always take a grigri on multipitch climbs. Belayer gets the grigri; leader gets the ATC Guide. I do not belay a second with a grigri. The grigri is particularly useful for facilitating alpine naps while belaying.

Other than on an A5 pitch, I cannot think of any circumstance where a factor two fall could not be prevented. Put another way, there is no reason for there EVER to be a factor two fall (yes, even if the crux is getting to the first bolt). If you are confused by this you should seek instruction. .

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote: I took a pretty high factor fall. 10-15 above the anchor, the only thing between me and my belayer was a draw clipped to the anchor. So not quite 2, but high. We had a brand new 9.4, as in, uncoiled that morning. He caught my just fine with an ATC.

You should note that the concerns shown by the CAI, Petzl, DAV and others including myself over the ability to stop large falls with a plate device is NOT primarily related to the fall factor. A higher fall factor makes it more likely the rope slips BUT the overall energy that needs to be disappated before sliding stops is related to the length of the fall, a long fall will provide enough excess energy to severely burn the belayer and may make it impossible to stop the fall altogether.
A 10ft fall from above the belay is not "long" by anyones definition and I would expect any competent belayer to hold this with any device. 60 or 100ft out one should have concern:-)

Jim, I agree with you.

I just pointed that out because my fall 10ft above the anchor is more realistic than a fall 60ft up. Not saying the big one is impossible but in the realm of free climbing, is vanishingly unlikely.

Also want to add that Josh correctly surmised that if you can't figure out how prevent a pure factor two from the belay setup, that you're doing it wrong.

My fall wasn't big, bad, or a big deal.

My partner that day was taped for crack climbing, even though the route ended up being very little of that. I wonder if tape across the palm can provide protection just like gloves can. My thought is that yes it can, with limits.

Josh Janes wrote: Other than on an A5 pitch, I cannot think of any circumstance where a factor two fall could not be prevented. Put another way, there is no reason for there EVER to be a factor two fall (yes, even if the crux is getting to the first bolt). If you are confused by this you should seek instruction. .

Well yes and no. Every FF 2 could be prevented with the appropriate actions, but the reality is that many pitches begin with FF 2 potential on easy ground in circumstances that would require time-consuming trickery to avoid such falls. I think trad climbing, especially in alpine settings, is chock full of such circumstances. Of course, experienced climbers don't fall on easy ground, so it this isn't much of a problem.

The one FF 2 fall I've caught fits that description pretty well: easy climbing with the first gear possibility perhaps fifteen feet above the belay, belay anchor at waist level so not a good option for clipping it first. The fall happened when a hold that appeared to be solid broke.

Sure I could have lowered off the belay anchor and set up what would have been an awkward and uncomfortable hanging belay lower down so that the leader could have clipped the anchor effectively, but that would have been a lot of faffing for a situation judged (incorrectly as it turned out) to be trivial.

Having but one incident like this in 59 years of climbing makes it evident how rare such things are---the chances are they won't happen to most climbers, but the idea that the potential for something like this can or should always be prevented is in my opinion not realistic.

I've also once had to belay off an anchor I was not really happy about, and the climbing from that anchor was quite run-out. My take was that using the old-school type dynamic belay (which I had practiced extensively BITD) was a safer choice than clipping a questionable anchor and subjecting it to nearly double the load one would get from a FF 2 catch. Fortunately, this decision, like the majority of ones we make, was not subjected to testing.

What I think is realistic is of course to guard against FF 2's as much as possible in the overall context of the climb, but also to understand how to belay during the FF 2 portion of the start of the pitches that won't be protected by clipping the anchor or an immediately-placed jesus piece, and to be gloved in case, against all odds, things go wrong.

rgold wrote:My take was that using the old-school type dynamic belay (which I had practiced extensively BITD) was a safer choice than clipping a questionable anchor and subjecting it to nearly double the load one would get from a FF 2 catch.

Would you mind briefly touching on the physics of why the load is nearly double that of a FF2 catch? Thanks

Because it is going through the anchor and there you have the pulley effect, and the maximum load for FF 1.8 is almost the same as that for FF 2.

Traditional assumptions about friction over the top carabiner suggest that 1.67 is more like it.

If the faller goes past the belay ledge and the rope runs over the lip, you get an extra friction reduction depending on how much bend at the lip there is.

The real problem is the change in direction

Most modern yankee climbers arent ready for a high load that way as they no longer top belay off the harness constantly .... Unlike old geezahs and brits

Theres been threads here where folks have never top belayed off the harness, and several were arguing its unsafe (we wont even talk about reddit)

Youll see folks all the time try to set up poor belay positions for autoblock rather than just go off thr harness

If you cant top belay confidently off the harness you have no business belying on a gear multi route, especially one with gear anchors .... Because if the gear pops or the jesus draw gets undone (or breaks) in a high factor fall, you wont be ready for the change in direction

When folks as me to show em multi (i aint no guide except to the sbucks) i always get em to top belay off the harness and redirects ... Autoblock is for when they get some experience (not to mention the lowering issues)

One advantage of the grigri is that one can belay off the harness and still have some measure of "locking" backup as long as the cam isnt blocked ... Very useful on ledgy climbs where you want to travel fast and theres mainly stances and feature anchors (horn,trees)

If you look at the vids many top climbers use the grigri in the alpine ... Croft, anker, honnluv, tommy ....

;)

GriGri Plus:

youtu.be/mMKYhEYlxhI

Grigri: Gym edition.

Ted Pinson wrote:Grigri: Gym edition.

It sure looks more like it's been designed around the I'D, so more of a rope access relative than gym.

That larger cam inside is like the I'D. So is the panic stop. The I'D has teeth that would prevent lead belaying so of course that's been changed. The I'D also has a locked position for workers to go hands free and get out tools and a paintbrush.

I used one a lot when I did that kind of work. They're fidgety and have lots of quirks. I would have preferred to do the work with a gri-gri. Hopefully they've refined these issues for the consumer market. Looking at it though, I'd pick up a new GG2 before one of these.

John Wilder wrote: Ehhhh...that switch makes me nervous to hand it to a beginner....

climbing friend,

you are going to do the dying

new grigri come out
reckless noobs be everywhere
it cannot save you

don't death grip the cam
pay attention to climber
it would not save you

panic lock and switch
quite fancy and comforting
grigri can't save you

giant loop of slack
you're lazy and disgusting
you will do the death

"If you cant top belay confidently off the harness you have no business belying on a gear multi route, especially one with gear anchors .... Because if the gear pops or the jesus draw gets undone (or breaks) in a high factor fall, you wont be ready for the change in direction"

bearbreeder-
I'm curious what you mean here. If you led the pitch, and are belaying from the top, there is no Jesus piece. I am not seeing your point as to the drawbacks to Guide Mode, (other than the lowering thing, which is huge, I understand). There is no change in direction when belaying from the top- No factor 2 situation.

Obviously if the entire anchor you built pops, and you are belaying in Guide Mode, everyone dies. But is this a valid reason to belay off the harness from the top?

He means: if you don't know how to top belay from your harness, you aren't prepared to catch a FF2 lead fall, since it results in the leader falling below the belay in a position similar to belaying a follower...only with ridiculous amounts of force and only a split second to lock off properly.

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote: It sure looks more like it's been designed around the I'D, so more of a rope access relative than gym. That larger cam inside is like the I'D. So is the panic stop. The I'D has teeth that would prevent lead belaying so of course that's been changed. The I'D also has a locked position for workers to go hands free and get out tools and a paintbrush. I used one a lot when I did that kind of work. They're fidgety and have lots of quirks. I would have preferred to do the work with a gri-gri. Hopefully they've refined these issues for the consumer market. Looking at it though, I'd pick up a new GG2 before one of these.

From what little rope access work I've done (I'm a SPRAT Level 1), I agree that the I'D is annoying and fidgety. In particular, I find the anti-panic feature to be a massive nuisance. Trying to rappel on it on low-angle terrain is an issue since at that angle you want to open the cam up almost all the way, but in doing so you are getting close to the panic release point. Kind of touchy. There have been various other times when I found the panic feature to be a nuisance also. I think the Rig is much easier to use for rope access, since it lacks the panic feature, and just operates a bit more like a Gri-Gri.

As such, the addition of the panic feature is a nuisance and a turn-off from the product for me. I expect that, unless they have done a much better job of tuning it, lowering a light climber on low angle terrain or with rope drag could be a pain.

Aleks Zebastian wrote: climbing friend, you are going to do the dying new grigri come out reckless noobs be everywhere it cannot save you don't death grip the cam pay attention to climber it would not save you panic lock and switch quite fancy and comforting grigri can't save you giant loop of slack you're lazy and disgusting you will do the death

This is the best thing I've read in a week, and with the RNC going on, that's saying a lot. I'm still laughing. Nothing but gems from Aleks.

ukclimbing.com/videos/play.…

A short vidoe from UKClimbing.

What gyms are banning grigri's?

My gym bans ATC's...