Questions about AAI's 12 day mountaineering course

Morgan Patterson wrote: Servers are underpaid BECAUSE they get tips... not the same in guide services.

Your average guide is underpaid as well, unfortunately not for the same reasons. Assuming the guide is getting paid 300/day, (which working for AAI, they're almost certainly not) they have to work 200 days/year to make 60k a year. Guiding 200 days a year is exhausting and if your guide delivers a product that you're happy with and/or you connected with them, your tip should reflect that fact.

Trust me that we notice if you only tip 10%. Occasionally people will ask this exact question and the universal response is 10-20% depending on your means and how you feel the guide's performance was.

$500 for a $2400 seems pretty reasonable. Sure it's a lot of money, but you just spent $2400 to go climbing. (likely more when you factor in meals/gear/transportation/lodging) Those are all fixed costs and the only reason people balk at the real cost of tipping well is because it's the one cost entirely in their control.

Lastly, the idea that we do this because "it's fun" and that we accept making poor money because we love doing it is complete BS. Guiding, especially in the mountains, is hard and scary work. Don't get me wrong, I love my work and can't imagine doing anything else, but at the end of the day, I expect to make a real wage for a job well done. If we perpetuate the above myth, guiding in the US will always be an occupation for kids out of college killing time before they get a 'real job.' Would you rather your guide be a well paid professional who takes a hard and dangerous profession very seriously or a minimally trained climber with limited experience who will only do it for 5 years before moving on?

Max Tepfer wrote:but at the end of the day, I expect to make a real wage for a job well done.

I think you make a lot of great points but the what's $500 when you're spending $2500 on fixed costs doesn't sit well with me. If you think you should be paid more for your work talk to your employer... not your clients. Expecting your clients to pay you directly in tips to make up for the value your employer doesnt see in your labor, isn't something I support. That's just my personal opinion and I have worked in the service industry.

And one does choose the guiding profession for the lifestyle not the pay, just like a ski patroller. I've heard that in Europe guides are like Doctors... that's clearly a cultural difference. And if you want that... go to europe or change the culture here (ie your employer's value of you) a tip is great and nice but shouldnt EVER be expected for doing the job your employer paid you to do.

At one point in my 20's I considered the guiding profession but realized pretty early on that it would be a tough career with little pay and by 40 I'd likely have a broken body which would be unable to continue work with little security in life. Turns out by 34 I've got a whole host of problems that would interfere with a guiding profession.

Morgan, I can understand what you're getting at, but it's a bit of a chicken/egg scenario. If American guides were universally well payed, (as is mostly the case in Europe) then I would happily get zero tip. Honestly that's far more preferable for a variety of reasons.

But that's not the case. And until it is, the people that hire guides need to understand that and recognize that tips are part of the cost of the process. And yes, I agree that the culture needs to change. That's exactly why I'm taking issue with your assertion that I do this because it's a lifestyle as opposed to a job. That idea simply perpetuates the current culture that it's okay for me to get payed less because I'm having 'fun.' While there are certainly intangible rewards in guiding, trust me when i say that tying myself to someone who's skill set I don't know, usually can't put very much trust in, and working hard to keep them from killing us both is not what I do for fun.

I'm not saying tipping is mandatory or that it should be a an automatic reflex, but if you tip poorly or not at all, then you're sending a clear message that you're either not satisfied with your guide's performance or that you can't afford to.

Max Tepfer wrote:Morgan, I can understand what you're getting at, but it's a bit of a chicken/egg scenario. If American guides were universally well payed, (as is mostly the case in Europe) then I would happily get zero tip. Honestly that's far more preferable for a variety of reasons. But that's not the case. And until it is, the people that hire guides need to understand that and recognize that tips are part of the cost of the process. And yes, I agree that the culture needs to change. That's exactly why I'm taking issue with your assertion that I do this because it's a lifestyle as opposed to a job. That idea simply perpetuates the current culture that it's okay for me to get payed less because I'm having 'fun.' While there are certainly intangible rewards in guiding, trust me when i say that tying myself to someone who's skill set I don't know, usually can't put very much trust in, and working hard to keep them from killing us both is not what I do for fun. I'm not saying tipping is mandatory or that it should be a an automatic reflex, but if you tip poorly or not at all, then you're sending a clear message that you're either not satisfied with your guide's performance or that you can't afford to.

AGREED!!!

Max Tepfer wrote: Your average guide is underpaid as well, unfortunately not for the same reasons. Assuming the guide is getting paid 300/day, (which working for AAI, they're almost certainly not) they have to work 200 days/year to make 60k a year. Guiding 200 days a year is exhausting and if your guide delivers a product that you're happy with and/or you connected with them, your tip should reflect that fact. Trust me that we notice if you only tip 10%. Occasionally people will ask this exact question and the universal response is 10-20% depending on your means and how you feel the guide's performance was. $500 for a $2400 seems pretty reasonable. Sure it's a lot of money, but you just spent $2400 to go climbing. (likely more when you factor in meals/gear/transportation/lodging) Those are all fixed costs and the only reason people balk at the real cost of tipping well is because it's the one cost entirely in their control. Lastly, the idea that we do this because "it's fun" and that we accept making poor money because we love doing it is complete BS. Guiding, especially in the mountains, is hard and scary work. Don't get me wrong, I love my work and can't imagine doing anything else, but at the end of the day, I expect to make a real wage for a job well done. If we perpetuate the above myth, guiding in the US will always be an occupation for kids out of college killing time before they get a 'real job.' Would you rather your guide be a well paid professional who takes a hard and dangerous profession very seriously or a minimally trained climber with limited experience who will only do it for 5 years before moving on?

Very well said, Max. $2400 for 12 days = $200 per day, so probably the guide is making under $100 a day. My plumber charges about that for an hour.

Max Tepfer wrote: or that you can't afford to.

Is there anything wrong with that in your eyes? Should you only sign up to use a guide if you can afford to pay 20% per day / per client if things go smoothly?

I'm bored so here's my one time i didnt tip a guide...

I have only once not tipped a guide... It was at Silverton and the dude would ask us what we wanted to do, and then we did the exact opposite every fuckin time while other groups got the goods.

Finally, I figured out that for $159 we could get the heli for a run and break away from the dooouch. We made a few comments about him and his suckage to the another worker... turns out it was the owner, Jeff, he then took me and the other dude as his group. With the owner we did a run down a gully that had been closed all season and a few other amazing runs. All the other guides were like, "ohhhh shit you got to go down that???? You guys were first ones of the season, must have been redic good!"

Turned out to be redic day and we tipped the owner, but not the original guide.

doligo wrote: Very well said, Max. $2400 for 12 days = $200 per day, so probably the guide is making under $100 a day. My plumber charges about that for an hour.

That's one client in a group setting. If there are 6 clients, by your math they are making $600/day.
Though surely the breakdown isn't that cut and dry as they probably don't have a 6:1 guide to client ratio.
Comparing guides to plumbers is like comparing asphalt to oranges. It means nothing.
The take away: Learning how to do your own shit (climbing, plumbing, cooking, whatever) will always be cheaper than paying someone to do it for you.

simplyput wrote: That's one client in a group setting. If there are 6 clients, by your math they are making $600/day. Though surely the breakdown isn't that cut and dry as they probably don't have a 6:1 guide to client ratio.

You are right, but this "course" settings could be risky for the company as sometimes there could be just one or two person who sign up. So I think they set prices with the worst case scenario in mind.

simplyput wrote: Comparing guides to plumbers is like comparing asphalt to oranges. It means nothing.

Exactly. Plumbing is not rocket science. Everyone can do it, given the right tools. But we are willing to pay that much because it would cost us as much if not more to just acquire tools, not counting all the time you spend trying to figure shit out. We pay professionals exactly for that - for their expertise.

simplyput wrote: The take away: Learning how to do your own shit (climbing, plumbing, cooking, whatever) will always be cheaper than paying someone to do it for you.

Only if you value your time close to zero dollars per hour. Case and point: my neighbor has been sanding his deck for over a week now with a cheap electric handheld sander (not even close to being finished). Has he hired somebody, they'd be done in a couple of hours, or has he rented a big sander he would've finished it in a day or two. Now not only he spent countless of hours and probably developed an elbow tendonitis, but his cost in replacement pads has probably surpassed what he would've spent on hired labor or big sander rental.

simplyput wrote: If you are tipping more than 20% you are being laughed at by wait staff for being a sucker.

Bullshit.

I spent a decade waiting tables and tending bar and never once laughed at someone who tipped me well. In fact, I appreciated the hell out of it every time. Me and other coworkers would fight over who got to wait on regulars that tipped well and we would prioritize service to their table.

San Fran must be more fucked up than I thought if you guys laugh at people who pay you well to do you job.

Dave Bn wrote: San Fran must be fucked up.

you've got no idea.

The only thing you need to know about plumbing is shit flows downhill and pay days on Friday!

Everyone can do plumbing? HAHA.. If only I had pics of some of the hack jobs I've seen... Usually by college grads.

I coach big mountain skiing during the winters. We don't make shit, we call our pay checks "bi-monthly insults". I work my ass off asphalt contracting all summer to afford to coach and ski 100+ days a year. Even if I made enough in the summer to take winters off, I think I'd still coach. Because I love it, I get to show kids how to travel safely in the mountains. I show them how to respect the winter landscape and how to have fun doing it. I travel with kids a few times per winter for competitions, which often involves 14+ hour days while getting paid for an 8 hour day. We coaches like to bitch to each other about this, but at the end of the day we get to rip around Jhole, Snowbird or Whistler for a week and come back with a slightly larger paycheck than had we stayed home. It's fun to be in the mountains and make a positive impact on people who know less than you.

At the end of the year most (but not all) parents tip between $75 and $300. Tip or no tip I treat your kid the same. Local parents often struggle just to pay ski team dues, and coincidentally their kids are often the most down to earth and fun to ski with. What I'm saying is that I don't do it for the money. I think most climbing guides aren't in it for money, but a little money sure is nice.

As an adult you have a choice to hire a climbing guide or not. But if you do hire one you should tip them SOMETHING. In the case of a group outing for two weeks, I think two hundred for each of two guides is sufficient. As stated above tying in with a noob is far from a fun way to spend a day. But once you top the thing out, make it back to the car and realize you got paid to do what you love hopefully it feels a little better.

One more: if you're too broke to to tip your guide then don't hire one. You can learn a lot for free if you're willing to carry more than your fair share of weight for the old men.

s.price wrote: Tips are earned income, as in they should be earned. Not a given as many in the service industry seem to believe.

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