Did you choose climbing over a better career?

neils wrote:Your thread hit a chord with me. Whatever you decide be grateful you have the insight to at least consider it at this point. And who knows, in 5 years you might not want to climb anymore...you might get into something else. Its certainly possible.

I really appreciate your post! I really valued what you had to say.

It is possible I may not climb in 5 years but I am certain I will want to hike, backpack, and generally be close to the same type of scenery that climbing provides. I am now realizing how important it is to me to be close to these types of places and have access while also being in a culture that supports the outdoorsy lifestyle (as opposed to what my current location considers an "active" lifestyle and that means daily working out in a gym, for example). I may have to sacrifice certain things to achieve this and I know I'm young, but I think I'm prepared to live with the decision to be in a place where I'll be happy rather than have a high paying job.

I work at a large corporation in a commercial/marketing function, and typically work 40-50 hour weeks. The work ebbs and flows, though -- sometimes I can take off early and probably put in closer to a 30 hour week, but sometimes I'm probably close to 65-70 hours. Over the course of a year, though, feels like I work a pretty regular 9-5.

It's a stressful job, and demanding, and can be very hard to disconnect from even outside the office. I don't love the corporate environment, and I'm not very driven to chase better titles or ascend the ladder -- there are many days where I seriously question how much longer I can stay the course.

That being said, there are also some serious advantages that I'm thankful for:

- Autonomy. As long as I'm not screwing up my projects, nobody cares if I come in at 10am and leave at 2pm. Realistically, I usually come in around 8am and leave by 4pm, but if I need to be home in the morning for a delivery or have an appointment in the afternoon, I don't have to get any sign off. Employees are empowered to make their own schedule, and if it doesn't become a problem, then management doesn't get involved. Not all big corporations are like this, but I think it's becoming increasingly common. At my old company, it was frowned upon to leave before 5pm, even though many times employees would arrive in the office by 7am.

- Compensation/benefits. Similar to others, I live relatively frugally and manage my expenses and savings pretty well. The upside of working a stressful corporate job is that I don't have to worry about finances, and I get great benefits including vacation time. So I might not have the time to go climbing midweek or every weekend, but the compensation/benefits my company offers gives me the freedom to plan at least 1 "big" climbing trip per year, as well as the random long weekend here or there. I live in the Bay Area, which isn't great for being a weekend warrior (compared to SLC, Front Range, Chattanooga, etc.), but if I want to spend a week in the RRG or Joe's Valley or even go abroad and check out Font or Ceuse, I'm able to.

- Mental/intellectual satisfaction. I may not be working my dream job, and I may have my fair share of gripes and grievances. But, at the end of the day, I get to do a lot of critical thinking, analysis and try to solve some pretty cool problems. It's easy to take this for granted, but it's a part of the job I genuinely enjoy, and fortunately for me it's the most fundamental part of the job. I've been on a few extended climbing trips, and usually after a matter of weeks, I get pretty sick of talking about climbing all day every day, and start longing for some mental stimulation.

- Career options. One of the big benefits of working for a huge corporation is that there are such a diverse set of departments and functions, and it's so much easier to make in-roads from inside the company than from without. If I want to change gears and start a different career path, I know people who work in training & development, in operations, in charitable giving, in manufacturing, etc.

Overall, I'm satisfied working in this environment, and feel that it gives me enough freedom to pursue climbing as a serious hobby. I wish I lived in a more weekend warrior-friendly city, though there are also non-climbing advantages that make me grateful to live in the Bay Area -- but that's a whole other can of worms!

Lastly, in order to get into this corporate gig, I started off as a consultant for the first few years after getting my bachelor's. That job had fairly hellish hours, poor management, mediocre benefits, etc. But, like others have referenced, in my early 20s I could deal with all that, and still have the energy to climb and party a bunch to boot. Right around the time I was getting ready to quit that job, I was so disillusioned with it that if you'd have given me a time machine, I'd have gone back to my interview and bombed it on purpose so I'd never have gotten the offer to begin with. Now that I have this corporate job that's actually fairly satisfying, I realize that it was totally worth the grind in my early 20s to suffer through a couple years of consulting. Maybe it's not possible when you're in the moment, but try to be open to a job that may be a means to an end in your early 20s, if it can set you up for something better in your late 20s, 30s, and beyond.

Something that others have touched on is the fact that by working hard and distinguishing yourself in a job at the beginning of your career makes you a more valuable asset a few years down the road. By making sacrifices for a few years now, you can build a resume and contacts that will help you get a better paying and more flexible job later. If you are highly regarded in your field and have a wealth of relevant experience, people will want to hire you. You can use this as leverage to get the sort of working conditions that you want, i.e. more vacation time etc. There are a lot of mediocre people without a strong work-ethic out there, and from a managerial point of view those who take ownership and initiative to get things done correctly and completely will stand out. Be this kind of worker now, perhaps at the expense of having as much fun as possible, and you will be setup for a life with more freedom as you enter your late twenties.

I would add this:

You will hear some people tell you: "follow your bliss now while you're young, you can always go make money later if it doesn't work out".

At 22, it feels like your future is all in front of you, the possibilities are endless, you can always start over. At 40, you better have the career built and be well on your way to securing a retirement nest egg. I'm 43, it seems like I was 30 just yesterday.

In the big picture time will pass faster than you ever imagined, I can promise you that.

1. Find a career that allows you to stack/maximize your days off (e.g. nursing, teaching), live close to climbing, or work remotely. I ditched my infectious disease PhD program and switched to tech for location flexibility. I've been working remotely for ~6 years now in the internet/software industry.

2. Keep your expenses low.

3. Don't have kids.

this might be a slight thread hijack...sorry

in line with this discussion and possibly relevant to the OP's question over the long haul...has anyone that has chosen climbing, or any other personal pursuit over children, marriage, career, any of the combination of those 3 regretted it? especially the children one...does anyone feel like, damn...i gave up on having a rich family life to climb and hike? i feel like i missed out...if i only knew then etc etc

i have children and quite honestly and i make no apologies about it, i often wonder if it was the right decision, in line with the title of this thread except I would change it to...did you choose climbing over X? fill in the blank...kids, etc. I love my kids, Im a good dad, but damn its not easy for someone "like me" maybe im just selfish - hopefully they get into what I am into - then it could be awesome - if they don't, I accept it, but if they do it could be very cool. In the meantime I won't lie and say its not hard.

neils wrote:has anyone that has chosen climbing, or any other personal pursuit over children, marriage, career, any of the combination of those 3 regretted it?

no kids, no marriage, modified career = no regrets

neils wrote:this might be a slight thread hijack...sorry in line with this discussion and possibly relevant to the OP's question over the long haul...has anyone that has chosen climbing, or any other personal pursuit over children, marriage, career, any of the combination of those 3 regretted it? especially the children one...does anyone feel like, damn...i gave up on having a rich family life to climb and hike? i feel like i missed out...if i only knew then etc etc i have children and quite honestly and i make no apologies about it, i often wonder if it was the right decision, in line with the title of this thread except I would change it to...did you choose climbing over X? fill in the blank...kids, etc. I love my kids, Im a good dad, but damn its not easy for someone "like me" maybe im just selfish - hopefully they get into what I am into - then it could be awesome - if they don't, I accept it, but if they do it could be very cool. In the meantime I won't lie and say its not hard.

I love climbing, a lot. But, it doesn't compare to how much I enjoy being with my kids. Yeah, I ditch them to go climbing on a regular basis, but it keeps me stress free and mentally happy and honestly I spend a lot of time with them so I don't really feel like they aren't getting personal time with me. I don't regret the family life one bit, it's my favorite part about living.

No kids - Though I do enjoy my niece and nephew.

Live frugal

Either chose to live close to climbing or make sure you have a job that allows for ample time off (ideally both)

This would apply to whatever your hobby is....you won't regret the time NOT spent working.

fossana wrote: no kids, no marriage, modified career = no regrets

i think the better question is, has anyone who had kids regretted it. sure it is tough and expensive but they sure do bring you lots of happiness too. also, if you really love climbing you will make it work.

i have a 5 month old at home, own a house and just got back from a climbing trip to rainier. i have another climbing trip to CO at the end of august. i dont make a ton of money but certainly above average. im happy to have a family and a house, even if they restrict my climbing, they do not prevent it.

if you will only be happy if you can climb 5.14 and hit the crag 4 days a week, the career and family life probably arent for you.

kzurriola wrote: I have a business administration & marketing degree with a minor in environmental studies. My past experiences and current employment are with medical device / biotech companies (a personal interest because of a father in biomed). I also have graphic design experience. I'd love to work in anything med device/health & wellness or outdoor/sustainability/environmental sciences related (retail would also be fine if it was REI/Black Diamond/Patagonia/etc). I'm more focused on marketing communications, not necessarily sales or management.

Unfortunately, if you are serious in pursuing career in biotech and medical devices, you are stuck to Bay Area, San Diego, Boston, NJ or NC Research Triangle areas or even worse Minneapolis since you mentioned medical device space. Not very many biotech companies in the mountains. There are some biotech companies in Boulder/Denver area, but I'm sure everyone in the industry who's into climbing or outdoor recreation wants those jobs.

How big/reputable is the company you work for now? I'd say suck it up, work a couple of years and after that try to get a job with a smaller development phase company. They usually love having impressive big pharma resumes, and would be more flexible/generous with compensation packages and work hours. If you get lucky, and they get their product approved or close to approval, or they get acquired, you may be able to cash in your stock options and retire early and go climb! But seriously, even if they don't strike a gold, with biotech companies you can always make money by selling on rumors/news as long as your stock options are not restricted too much (but that's what you can get out of your employment contract when they first try to hire you).

Jake wander wrote: if you will only be happy if you can climb 5.14 and hit the crag 4 days a week, the career and family life probably arent for you.

Uh oh, don't tell that to the Anderson's!

Seriously though, this is something I think about constantly. My wife and I are in our early 30s and on the fence about kids. I'm very much a performance oriented climber -- not 5.14 but moving through the numbers and not slowing down, nor do I want to slow down. The flipside is that I recognize I really might enjoy having a family when hard climbing isn't really suitable anymore. That's why I really appreciate what guys like Mike and Mark bring to the table, compared to various other 20-something child phenoms.

If you could find some kind of reliable statistic that says something like "70% of 45 yr old climbers have no kids", you might change my mind.

I'm just going w the Census Bureau stats that say it's the exact opposite for the population in general.

So if you're 25, 30, or even 35, starting out a life/financial plan with the assumption that you will never want or have kids is questionable at best.

If you bothered to get a degree, then go and get a job ASAP after you graduate. Ideally even during the last year in school. Work a few years. Then evaluate if you can/want to take a few years off.

The reason is there are a lot of speciality programs in government and in the private sector geared towards hiring fresh grads. Employers are more willing to cut you a break, give you a chance if you are fresh out of school. This is a critical period that no longer applies if you are a year or two out of college and have nothing to show for it. Worst, by that time, you'll be competing with everyone else with 1-2 years of experience for entry level positions, and you will have no experience. The longer you are out of school, the less meaningful the degree and school is. At that point it is all about experience. If you have no experience, your degree won't help you at all if you decide to go get a job.

The cynic in me sees schooling as a way to increase your chances at getting an interview, making the odds in the lottery a bit better. Obviously you bring something to the table as well, but you go to school X so you have a higher chance of getting an interview than someone who did not go to school or did not go to a school as good as X.

So, in my opinion, dirtbagging straight out of school is the worst. You'll be saddled with debt too. Better off not having gone to college at all at that point.

doligo wrote: Unfortunately, if you are serious in pursuing career in biotech and medical devices, you are stuck to Bay Area, San Diego, Boston, NJ or NC Research Triangle areas or even worse Minneapolis since you mentioned medical device space.

I'm starting to realize that now. I wasn't aware before, while I was developing my education and increasing my interest in med device, that I would be so restricted location-wise. The unfortunate thing is, I would prefer to not reside in any of those places (currently near San Diego, not liking it)

doligo wrote: How big/reputable is the company you work for now?

I'm actually employee number 8 (out of 8). I'm at a medical device startup that is currently approved but conducting clinical studies and only scratching the surface as far as users of the product. I'm also learning quickly that the startup company life is one with long hours and weekends (I should have known - but the opportunity was seemingly too good to pass up - it was quite a high starting salary for an entry level position).

kzurriola wrote: I'm starting to realize that now. I wasn't aware before, while I was developing my education and increasing my interest in med device, that I would be so restricted location-wise. The unfortunate thing is, I would prefer to not reside in any of those places (currently near San Diego, not liking it) I'm actually employee number 8 (out of 8). I'm at a medical device startup that is currently approved but conducting clinical studies and only scratching the surface as far as users of the product. I'm also learning quickly that the startup company life is one with long hours and weekends (I should have known - but the opportunity was seemingly too good to pass up - it was quite a high starting salary for an entry level position).

There's also Pittsburgh. Not exactly climbing Mecca, but there some decent weekend trip options and bunch of semi-local choss.

evan h wrote: Uh oh, don't tell that to the Anderson's!

Climbing hard & having a lot of time to climb are not the same thing. I doubt the Anderson bros have 4 days a week to climb.

As for the kids thing, it's a choice. I'm not here to judge, but just realize it's unsustainable if everyone decide to not have kids. I don't have kids (yet), but I'm not going to tell everyone that's the way to go.

kzurriola wrote: I'm starting to realize that now. I wasn't aware before, while I was developing my education and increasing my interest in med device, that I would be so restricted location-wise. The unfortunate thing is, I would prefer to not reside in any of those places (currently near San Diego, not liking it) I'm actually employee number 8 (out of 8). I'm at a medical device startup that is currently approved but conducting clinical studies and only scratching the surface as far as users of the product. I'm also learning quickly that the startup company life is one with long hours and weekends (I should have known - but the opportunity was seemingly too good to pass up - it was quite a high starting salary for an entry level position).

Sounds like a great opportunity! Startups are definitely demanding, but hopefully there's some good incentives to keep you working hard if the company actually takes off...

I've heard good things about Stryker, and they even have jobs near good climbing cities! careers.stryker.com/jobs/search?Keywords=&Country=US&State=UT&City=&i…

Tim Lutz wrote: I assume you are talking to me? If your experience varies, so you are happy having kids (and no would ever openly admit they aren't!) then good for you. I see what my friends with kids deal with, and I'm happy I'm not them. The studies are based on people's perception of their own happiness, however accurate that may be.

I'm not talking about the happiness part, I'm talking about the fact that, all other things being equal, the odds are not in the OP's favor if he's budgeting for the rest of his life based on the "no kids" budget.

The closer to 40 he is, the more I'd be inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt, but apparently he just graduated college, so he's probably closer to 25.

she it's a she. why people automatically assume it's a he?