Bolted Slab routes - trad, or sport?

rosslbeard12 wrote:While I generally think this is a contrived and stupid topic, the "shut up and climb" argument has a lot of sway with me. I also think it holds some importance to the climbing community at large. We as climbers need to maintain a level of respect for routes created before us. That is why I think the trad vs. sport distinction is important. If the intent of the FA was to create a free climb by clipping bolts on lead whether established on rappel or as stated previously on aid lead the sport distinction should be used. Not that these climbs are any less fun or lacking in any way, they were created for a specific type of climbing which can be extremely fun, exciting, and rewarding. However, if the FA put in a climb ground up on lead one could make the trad or "traditional" distinction. I also think this is important so generations of climbers can enjoy the route in much the same way the FA enjoyed it with or without limited protection. If, however, traditional climbs with bolts somehow begin to be seen as simply "sport" climbs future climbers may see a need to improve the perceived safety of these climbs by retro bolting. It is my hope that traditional climbs maintain there original feel, because I love getting shaky leg on run-out 5.6 slab. I have a healthy respect for climbers that have an incredible ability to create fun memorable routes in whatever style they choose.

Wouldn't that all be better expressed in route descriptions, comments and story telling rather than trying to squeeze it down into a choice of two words? That binary fits better with the concepts of all bolts or need gear to me.

Yes , the desire not to limp in old age and climb forever with more Safety, so TO CLIMB FOEVER,
have been the driving force of the change that HealyJe , and I disagree about.

If it means anything Joe climbs much more than this Joey ;)
& at More constant level -a high level- HealyJe, has rocked hard for decades.
Not that there is anything special about that,
unless you are interested in also trying to climb for forever?
If you want to climb for a decade or two, you can listen to a few very qualified people,
The number of those climbing, leading hard gear routes, doing FAs at a high standard , into their fifties & beyond is far fewer.
I'm always learning how to climb & glad to have the likes of Healyje around to remind me or school me as the case may be.

I am also constantly happily surprised when I do show at a popular climbing zone, how many older climbers there are, we Silverbacks represent !

I think climbers have been padding landings forever? If you look at jgil's boldering history you can see. Bivy straw covering landings in some of the drawings, from the 1700s?
I'm suffering for not having access to good pads. I'm sure my lower back soreness is due to a bad landing from a Trapp Rock side pull onto k nichols' blown-out mattress.
I think that padding rocks using bedding to pad landings is universal.

rosslbeard12 wrote:While I generally think this is a contrived and stupid topic, the "shut up and climb" argument has a lot of sway with me. I also think it holds some importance to the climbing community at large. We as climbers need to maintain a level of respect for routes created before us. That is why I think the trad vs. sport distinction is important. If the intent of the FA was to create a free climb by clipping bolts on lead whether established on rappel or as stated previously on aid lead the sport distinction should be used. Not that these climbs are any less fun or lacking in any way, they were created for a specific type of climbing which can be extremely fun, exciting, and rewarding. However, if the FA put in a climb ground up on lead one could make the trad or "traditional" distinction. I also think this is important so generations of climbers can enjoy the route in much the same way the FA enjoyed it with or without limited protection. If, however, traditional climbs with bolts somehow begin to be seen as simply "sport" climbs future climbers may see a need to improve the perceived safety of these climbs by retro bolting. It is my hope that traditional climbs maintain there original feel, because I love getting shaky leg on run-out 5.6 slab. I have a healthy respect for climbers that have an incredible ability to create fun memorable routes in whatever style they choose.

Great post !!!!!
There's tons of routes of all types...they don't all have to be "safe"..I'm glad they are not and hope a lot stay that way.

"yes, for many people, sport means "bolts only" and trad means "gear protected". This is only going to increase as more gym climbers move outdoors."

lol at everyone taking shots at "newbies" coming from the gym. It has nothing to do with the gym. Plenty of us newer climbers are hardcore outside real-rock purists who despise gym climbing, or perhaps enjoy it but fully understand its limited place.

Nobody said ground-up FA routes on featureless slab or face terrain are to be taken lightly. And no one said sport climbing is to be taken lightly. It's simply a convenient "binary" to think of a trad route as one in which you will actually place gear. If it's non-protectable terrain, and you are clipping bolts only, in my mind I am calling that a sport route. Sorry. This system is easy, doesn't hurt anyone's feelings, and doesn't at all lead to me having a "casual" approach to any type of lead climbing. Far from it!

Tim Lutz wrote:Paint the 'golden age of climbing' however you want, but the unwashed hoards don't want to face death or being a vegetable every time they rope up. Whether evolution or devolution, sport climbing was inevitable

You're not getting any argument from me. In the mid-70's it was only trad and an easy 50% of climbers were nervous at best and those were the ones that stuck it out and didn't bail immediately. They represented an overnight pent up demand for sport climbing and couldn't abandon trad fast enough.

Tim Lutz wrote:...and more gyms? just means more yoga pantz!

Well, bouldering gyms maybe. What's the point of yoga pantz sullied and obscured by those nasty harnesses?

Healyje wrote: Well, bouldering gyms maybe. What's the point of yoga pantz sullied and obscured by those nasty harnesses?

I dunno, when they're holding a fall, or "take" it looks pretty nice too.

I start every bolted slab climb in NC with a full rack and double ropes. That's NC sport. Of course I'm a big p*ssy....

All the NC climbers I've met are among the boldest and most creative I've ever run across.

Russ Keane wrote:It's simply a convenient "binary" to think of a trad route as one in which you will actually place gear. If it's non-protectable terrain, and you are clipping bolts only, in my mind I am calling that a sport route. Sorry.

You should apologize! It's this redefining of terms that is causing the confusion.

Marc801 wrote: You should apologize! It's this redefining of terms that is causing the confusion.

Language evolves or it becomes an outdated tool.

Here's a slab I bolted. It's a horror show.
I broke convention when I bolted this slab. I chose to push boundaries and rap down instead of the common mundane ground up style. It wasn't easy. At times, I was mildly concerned whether my GriGri would stay cinched up while I fumbled around with the tool bag. Hanging up there I also had to fight the unnerving thought that someone might stop and break into my truck. The worst part was dealing with all the falcon egg yolks on my shoes from kicking the nest off the ledge.
This sport isn't for sissies......

Are the bolts so close to keep the climber off a ledge?

Close? Are you kidding? Just try to balance on 9+ crystals and clip with a bolt at your knee. The stress is unbearable.

Maybe you are supposed to put gear between.

M Sprague wrote: Language evolves or it becomes an outdated tool.

I think mostly that is true, but in this case it's too drastic an "evolution" to say that "bolts = sport". I really think most people expect that a route designated as "sport" will have a low risk potential/low commitment required. As has been shown countless times the existence of 1 or more and/or only bolts on a route does not mean it meets that requirement.

Mike Lane wrote: I broke convention when I bolted this slab. I chose to push boundaries and rap down instead of the common mundane ground up style. It wasn't easy. At times, I was mildly concerned whether my GriGri would stay cinched up while I fumbled around with the tool bag. Hanging up there I also had to fight the unnerving thought that someone might stop and break into my truck. The worst part was dealing with all the falcon egg yolks on my shoes from kicking the nest off the ledge. This sport isn't for sissies......

There are holds. That ain't no slab!

M Sprague wrote: Language evolves or it becomes an outdated tool.

True enough. However in this case there is no need for it to evolve, especially when based on misunderstanding.

Ted Pinson wrote: There are holds. That ain't no slab!

Alas the definition of "slab" is becoming as murky and incorrect as "bolts=sport"

Marc801 wrote: True enough. However in this case there is no need for it to evolve, especially when based on misunderstanding.

Seems like there two school of thought here:

Old School: Definition based on FA tactic's. My take away from this thread has been that basically Trad = Ground Up FA, potentially run out if bolts are added. Sport = bolted on rap, then FA. Basically defining FA style, which is fine, but doesn't say much about the route. This definition doesn't provide much "beta" on the route. Of course I know there are ground up FA's of sport routes, so maybe that's incorrect. In that case is it only classified after it's been bolted? Is it the FA parties choice? Could I ground up bolt a route, that well protected, and call it trad?

The argument here seems to stem from: all sport routes are bolted, but not all bolted routes are sport. So how do you distinguish?

The next definition seems to address this:

New School: Route definition based on how the climb is protected. When talking about this it's important to include the "Mixed" definition. Basically: Sport = well bolted. Trad = gear only. Mixed = somewhere in the middle. This seems to be a very practical definition for understanding what to bring to the crag - it's a convenience definition, vs a style definition. All the "exceptions" to the new school sport/trad definitions presented in this thread would basically fall in the "Mixed" category.

FWIW, based on the limited guide books I've seen, the "New School" definition seems to be what's used to classify routes today.

"At times, I was mildly concerned whether my GriGri would stay cinched up while I fumbled around with the tool bag"

Why not tie a knot? Was that entire post a sarcastic way of poking fun at people who bolt on rappel. And over-bolt. I am confused...