trad cams in smaller sizes

need some finger sized cams for my rack, debating between:

Metoulis TCUs

Black diamond c3's

black diamond x4's

totum basics

or aliens
I cant make a proper decision still could use some information on which is best, I was wanting the tcus for a while but they dont have any flex, and the new aliens i have heard multiple stories of them breaking.

help a brother out to make some decisions before the season is over.

In my opinion, you can't go wrong with Totems(basic or regular), X4's, or Mastercams. They're all excellent small pieces.

I'm not a fan of three lobe cams or the Fixe aliens.

Q: Do you have trouble making decisions?

A: Well, yes and no.

Where you primarily climb will help make the decision.

In solid rock types, like granite for example, cams with 3 lobes hold well and can sometimes fit in places where cams with 4 lobes will not.

If you tend to spend a lot of time on softer or more friable rock, picking cams with 4 lobes is probably a better idea as that fourth lobe can bring in some additional holding power.

There are no absolutes in terms of which 3 or 4 cam units to select. All of them have pros and cons that tend to neutralize one another depending on the rock type and style of climbing you will predominantly use them for.

Most of my time climbing is spent on quartzite or granite at this point. I ended up going with a mix of c3's and x4's for my small stuff and the decision was based solely on economics. I got a better deal on BD stuff because of my location.

If you're building a rack and have mostly BD cams, finish out the set with C4s.

If you have a full rack and you're looking to supplement, get [Totem] Aliens.

Climb on other peoples small cams and see what you like. I've found I prefer c3's to red (#2) and x4's up from there. Master and are a great alternative, but for the horizontal placements of the GUNKS it's just easier to rebend an x4 after a fall IMO. And I find the .3 x4 much more useful than its equivalent 00 dmm dragon in GUNKS but the 00 dmm dragon better in the ADK and more typical crack climbing. Point is, try stuff out and you'll find the sweet spot for where you're climbing and you'll be happier than getting something and realizing you preferred a different product.

Really can't go wrong it's all great gear.

Never had an issue with Metolius TCU's and I have used them forever.

Food for thought: Small cam discussions abound round here. The following threads come up searching on "small cams", "aliens", "master cams" and "tcus"

You could also try searching on "totem basics","x4" etc

My personal preference are totem basics and TCUs

YMMV

http://www.mountainproject.com/v/would-you-replace-a-3-c4-with-another-brand/111946370#a_111947186

mountainproject.com/v/malfu…

mountainproject.com/v/cam-o…

mountainproject.com/v/whats…

mountainproject.com/v/fixe-…

mountainproject.com/v/small…

mountainproject.com/v/fixe-…

mountainproject.com/v/the-e…

mountainproject.com/v/ultra…

mountainproject.com/v/fixe-…

mountainproject.com/v/doubl…

mountainproject.com/v/small…

mountainproject.com/v/ultra…

mountainproject.com/v/think…

mountainproject.com/v/updat…

mountainproject.com/v/possi…

mountainproject.com/v/small…

mountainproject.com/v/totem…

www.steimann.li

goto climbing, slcd's, compare

done

Totem basics. I have yet to meet a single person (myself included) who's used them and doesn't swear by them. BD X4s pair well with C4s since they use the same coloring scheme...some people complain about them, but I like them from 0.5 down better than C4s.

The title of this thread......I just can't resist:

Are there such things as sport cams?

;-)

X4s for the range they come in. Four lobes, smaller head than Aliens, etc. This review is pretty accurate in my opinion:
outdoorgearlab.com/Climbing…

I really prefer sport cams. Or if I'm feeling really strong, bouldering cams

Basics, X4s, and Mastercams are all good. Different people have their quibbles about X4s and Mastercams; it all comes down to personal preference. No one has anything bad to say about Basics. By this measure, Basics are the best choice, since there is the least chance that you'll find you don't love them (since everyone loves them).

Don't buy ultra-micro cams at first. So this means no 0.1 X4, no 00 (grey) mastercam. Beginning trad climbers shouldn't be using these sizes, since the margin of error is so much smaller, and beginner trad climbs rarely require these sizes anyway. Small nuts are usually more solid in these sizes anyway, so buy some DMM Peenuts and get good at placing them.

Good sizes to start with are the green, yellow, and red Totem Basics. Then use C4s from 0.75 on up. Or just get the green and yellow if you already have a 0.5 C4 (which is about the same size as the red basic). If you get X4s, 0.3, 0.4, and 0.5 X4s are the equivalents (though I like the 0.5 C4 more). If you go with Mastercams, get the blue, yellow, and orange, plus maybe a red; note that Mastercams have a smaller range it that's more cams to cover the same set of sizes. Mastercams don't tie in as neatly to the C4s (or dragons) you will inevitably carry in the hand sizes. You'll eventually want the next size down (blue basic, 0.2 X4, purple mastercam), but you don't need that right now; get solid on the larger sizes first.

If you have two sets of small cams, it is best to mix brands, since different cams will fit better in different places. I find that basics and X4s complement each other well, since the sizing schemes stagger nicely. You could get the same effect by mixing Mastercams with X4s or Basics. So choose one brand to start with, and down the road you can double up with a different brand.

Don't buy Fixe Aliens. Basics are better in every way. Even if the Basics are significantly more expensive, they are the better choice. Fixe quality control has had issues.

Some people still like TCUs, but IMO they have been replaced by modern flexible narrow-head 4 cam units (Basics, etc.). TCUs were pretty sweet in 1993, but there are better options on the market now. They have several notable disadvantages, offering less stability and surface areas than the Basics or X4s, without a head0width advantage to compensate. The TCUs also lose on flexibility. If you want a narrow-head 3-cam unit, get C3s.

C3s are a specialty piece, and are best in the smaller sizes (00 (purple) and 0 (green)). They are amazing for very narrow placements, and go in where nothing else will. There are many places that you can get a pretty good placement with a C3, that with any other piece you would not even consider as a viable cam placement. On the flip side, they sometimes feel a bit wobbly in straightforward placements; the narrow head gives them less stability. Using them takes a bit more care and skill than the standard 4 cam units. I think that these cams are bets for the more advanced user. Don't buy them as your first set. Start with a 4-cam unit, and later on you can fill in the bottom end of the size range with C3s.

Offsets/hybrids: It will be several years before you even need to think about these.

TL;DR: Start by buying the green, yellow, and red Totem Basics. Or the equivalent X4s or Mastercams. Down the road you can consider getting the smaller sizes, double up on finger sizes by getting a set from another brand, and fill in the bottom end of the size range with C3s. But for at least the first year or two of your trad climbing, the green, yellow, and red Basics are all you need.

Totems and mastercams are my personal favs. I use those up to the .5, then it's totems and C4s the rest of the way up.

JCM,

Of all those brands and models, which have you actually owned full sets (up to C4 0.5) and used extensively?

mountainhick wrote:JCM, Of all those brands and models, which have you actually owned full sets (up to C4 0.5) and used extensively?

Credentials:

My "standard full double rack" right now is;

C3s: Purple, Green for the tiny stuff.
Aliens/Basics: Green CCH Alien; Yellow and Red Basics. Will replace the alien with a basic when I find one on sale
X4s: 0.2-0.4
C4s: I carry 1 0.5 C4 (since the red basic is the double for this size). Double C4s for 0.75 and above.
For nuts, I mostly carry offset DMM nuts (various models and sizes). Non-offset nuts are for suckas...

Exactly what goes on the rack is always being edited

Used occasionally are a red C3, 0.3 C4, 0.4 C4, another 0.5 C4, a second yellow basic, and a whole bunch of old-style camalots in the middle to larger sizes. These come out when I need triples/quads of sizes. All of these got used extensively at some point in the past, but have gone to the "B team" after getting updated gear. For instance, I used to use the red C3 more, but finally got a green alien and decided that I like it better.

I have a full set of TCUs also, and used them as my primary small cams for years (circa 2003-2010 ish), but they haven't seen the light of day in years. The new stuff is better. Trying to decide whether to sell them off cheap or to hold on to them for the creek rack. Anyone want to buy them? 80 bucks for a set of 5...

I also had a 0.1 X4 for about a year, but sold it because I think that C3s are superior in this size (purple C3). The 0.2, on the other hand, I find to be pretty good.

I've used Mastercams, CCH Aliens, Fixe Aliens, WC Zeros, and the other sizes of C3s a fair bit from when I use my partners' racks. Of these, the Mastercams and CCH Aliens I've used quite a lot. I dislike the Zeros (too delicate) and the yellow C3 (too wobbly).

I haven't used the 0.5 and 0.75 X4s; I've just checked them out in the shop and wasn't that pleased. Same goes for the Fixe Evo/"Lite" Aliens. I've never used Totem Cams (not the basis; the weird ones) in the field, but would love to try them. I also haven't had a chance to use the blue Basic yet, but expect that I'll like it a lot. I'll probably buy one eventually.

My experience with offsets is a bit limited. Have used offset Mastercams and CCH Aliens from partner's racks, but only a few times. Need to try using these more.

In short, I have placed and fallen on almost every cam mentioned in the post.

My personal preferences: Among the small cams, I like the X4s and Basics equally. If only carrying one set, I usually take the X4s since they tie in so perfectly with the C4s in the medium/large sizes. I feel like the Basics are a bit more robust and better constructed, though; the X4s can kink more easily. Mastercams are, in my opinion, a distant third (smaller expansion range, less flexible, weird trigger/sheath arrangement). They're still adequate, though, so I don't mind using them. C3s are kind of a different animal, and aren't quite comparable to the others; they have their uses and their limitations. TCUs...meh (small range for each cam, limited flexibility, no head-width advantage vs. X4s, less stable than a 4 cam unit, wider head width than modern 3-cam units (C3s), U-stem gets in the way).

Eh, I prefer the 0.5 X4 to the C4 (like the outdoorgearlab reviewer), but we get a lot of horizontal placements here at Devil's Lake. I have both and almost always reach for the X4 first. I guess if I had the Red basic I'd probably prefer it as a flexible cam in that range, though. I agree about the 0.1/0.2...the red is particularly finnecky. I'll often give up and just throw in a black tricam, lol.

Thanks JCM.

Regarding my own real world use of different brands/models, I have owned and used:

Totem basics blue-red

Original CCH aliens black-red

A couple Fixe aliens (CCH style not the new model)

Mastercams purple to red

x4s yellow to green

TCUs, grey to red

C3s: used to have these when guiding for NOLS, and own a single red C3 (booty)

and most recently, mastercam offsets

Mastercams and X4s: I bought new sets of mastercams and x4's respectively when they came out. Disliked them very much in comparison to the original aliens, basics and TCUs. They showed no advantages whatsoever and are much easier to overcam. This has to do with the end point in easy retraction of the cams when pulling the trigger. By pulling the trigger it is too easy to retract cams into an overcammed position. You could call it a "feel" issue, but practically it comes down to stuck cams. I sold MCs and X4s promptly after several days use.

MC offsets: have much less of this tendency since the retraction of the smaller side limits the over retraction of the larger side. I have not however found these offsets particularly more useful than basics and TCUs except for a couple specific flared places. I have very rare need for these pieces so far.

Original aliens, Fixe Aliens and Totem Basics: To me there is not a huge difference between them. The basics are better finished and tiny bit smaller, the original aliens (recalled cams aside) are a little inconsistent in manufacture but all place just fine. The Fixe aliens (CCH style) I had seemed OK. I did not have the trouble others have with them with the end cap and cams coming off, but based on the safety related problems Fixe's non-chalance about it, and poor customer service from Fixe, I boycott them.

TCUs: JCM, We are going to have to disagree here; In the real world placing small cams, the TCUs still offer some better placements than any of the 4 cam central stem units. It makes no sense to me to have two sets of 4 cam small cams when the TCU offers so much comparative versatility.

C3's: I never liked the molded plastic mid section on these and see no advantage over alien type trigger mechanisms. The 3 cam head width is nice when needed, but I still have not found anywhere yet that it is superior to a TCU.

So, I mainly use the totem basics accompanied by TCUs, and am trying to find use for the MC offsets. I will never buy more Fixe, Mastercams, X4s or C3's

Goes to show how much of small cam preference varies by individual.

Agreed that the Fixe Aliens I've used worked just fine, but I don't think I'd ever buy any due to QA issues that I've heard about from others.

TCUs: I do agree that there are some places where a TCU does fit better. I guess the difference is what percentage of placements that is. For me (based on my preferences and the locations I climb), when I do carry TCUs the number of times I am glad I have a TCU (since only a TCU would work) are much smaller than the number of times an Alien would feel more solid/stable. As such, if I'm carrying two of each size, I'd rather have them both be 4CUs. But I can see how the math would work out differently for someone else, especially if that person were climbing at another area (the Gunks come to mind). Do you find that there is a particular area (Eldo?) for you where TCUs shine, or do you like them for all areas? For reference, most of my trad climbing the last few years is on PNW granite (Index, Squamish, WA Pass, etc), and my current active rack is tailored for these places.

Mountainhick: how do you like the blue Basic? Compared to say, the purple Metolius, or whatever else you like to use in that size? I'm thinking I'll probably want to get one at some point.