Near miss at the Gunks
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bearbreeder wrote:lot of yappingAre you awere of what site you are on? The lady in your example also did not shorten up on her anchor with her rappel rig ( shorter than her tie-in ) and test, otherwise the problem would have been seen. I do understand that is not always possible. |
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Rick Blair wrote: Are you awere of what site you are on? The lady in your example also did not shorten up on her anchor with her rappel rig ( shorter than her tie-in ) and test, otherwise the problem would have been seen. I do understand that is not always possible.actually the lack of friction might not have been seen ... prior to going over the lip there may be sufficient friction, but once over the increase in felt weight can take folks by surprise, especially newbies which is why being able to stop and add friction on the way down ... and constant practice with steep rappels is so important ... heres an example of the loss of control youtube.com/watch?v=2ey-k5I… |
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Yup I'm 23 but not 'new,' been leading trad since I was 16 having learned from some great mentors and NOLS, and nope never asked where to practice rappelling on this site. Did respond to that thread when I realized I knew the volunteer firefighter who was looking for a hand. And I'm working in a research lab this summer so it's either climb at night or don't climb, which isn't a problem when I'm with my experienced partners, will I take a newer climber out at night again? Sure, but on a 1:1 ratio only and strictly use that guide mentality. |
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Medic741,^ ^ ^ ^ ^ |
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Stagg54 wrote: At the risk of getting flamed, I'm going to say that I often untie the knots in the end of the rope when I am the first one down, if the ropes comfortably reach the next ledge/stance. I do make it a point to say something and I hang out there until the next guy gets down. I do this for several reasons. #1, if the rope comfortably reaches the ledge and I am there, there is no way they will overshoot and no way they can go off the end of the ropes. #2 less chance of ever pulling the ropes with the knots still in it. #3 Often I start threading one end through the next anchor so that then when we pull it, it is already threaded.Yes, I do this too. It is a really big time saver on long rapples. |
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Gunkiemike wrote: Please don't ever climb with me. The knots are there to keep an unanticipated event from leading to death. In your scenario, a chunk of falling ice or rock, a freak lightning strike, an ischemic or anaphylactic event, anything like that could cause the rapper to whiz down the rope, past you on your "obvious" ledge.If the rope is threaded through the anchors, most people stop there. This is true even if the ledge isn't "obvious". |
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Lots of complex answers to a simple problem. |
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Greg D wrote: Hey Jack, you are going to give her a fireman's belay! Right?! Problem solved. Medic741 wrote: He was expected to give a firemans belay, this was discussed before we started rapping and he said 'no problem.' Medic741 wrote: A few minutes later I heard Ashley yelling that 'something was wrong' |
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^^^ you might want to re read that quote. |
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bearbreeder wrote: actually the lack of friction might not have been seen ... prior to going over the lip there may be sufficient friction, but once over the increase in felt weight can take folks by surprise, especially newbies which is why being able to stop and add friction on the way down ... and constant practice with steep rappels is so important ... heres an example of the loss of controlhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ey-k5ICWNA That wasn't a simple loss of control there. That was a partial or full rope anchoring failure! You can see the static line slip and tail getting sucked into the anchor. This causes the initial jolt and loss of footing. It isn't clear to me whether there was a total anchor failure or the partial failure simply triggered a loss of control. |
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Greg D wrote:^^^ you might want to re read that quote.Which one? I listed 3. Greg D wrote:It would be interesting to hear Jack's version of this story. I'm sure it would be different.Agreed. It would be interesting to hear directly from "Ashley" also. |
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Gunkiemike wrote: Please don't ever climb with me. The knots are there to keep an unanticipated event from leading to death. In your scenario, a chunk of falling ice or rock, a freak lightning strike, an ischemic or anaphylactic event, anything like that could cause the rapper to whiz down the rope, past you on your "obvious" ledge.If they use an autoblock, which everyone I climb with does, then no... In the situation I mentioned there really is no danger in untying the knots. They can see me. I can see them. There's plenty of tail in the ropes. They will never intentionally rap past me and off the end of the ropes. And the autoblock keeps them from sliding out of control if something crazy happens or they suddenly have a seizure or pass out. So tell me, in that sitatution - how is it dangerous? I've climbed with a large variety or people of a varying experience levels and with any of the experienced ones I've climbed with, we always use this system. Sometimes they've even been the ones to suggest it. You are entitled to do whatever you want. Everyone has a different level of acceptable risk, but in the case I'd say there is very little/practically no risk. If I've severely missed something then please let me know, but by my calculations I don't really see anything that could go wrong. If you can come up with a scenario that proves me wrong, then please let me know. I don't have a death wish... |
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patto wrote: youtube.com/watch?v=2ey-k5I… That wasn't a simple loss of control there. That was a partial or full rope anchoring failure! You can see the static line slip and tail getting sucked into the anchor. This causes the initial jolt and loss of footing. It isn't clear to me whether there was a total anchor failure or the partial failure simply triggered a loss of control.hmmmm ,,, yr right i had another video somewhere showing the proper scenario i remember years ago someone had a rap accident off el cap ... the loss control after going over the edge it was an extreme example but they were using long static lines so there was a ton of weight below the device ... as one goes down the rope there progressively less friction as there less weight of the rope dangling ... and of course the swap over on the edge puts the full weight of the climber on the rope suddenly ;) |
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I don't have any real issue with a 23 year old taking other inexperienced people out and having a learning experience. I think we've all been there. |
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highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote:I don't have any real issue with a 23 year old taking other inexperienced people out and having a learning experience. I think we've all been there. Where I see the problem is his outrageous insistence that he's much more experienced than people have pointed out that he is. Also his bragging about rope tricks that in his mind saved the day. Arrogance and an inability to see it as arrogance caused this problem and unless addressed, will cause more. This isn't about ropes, knots, raps, headlamps, or communication. His attitude was the primary cause and from what I've read, is the one problem he's not concerned about.I think this is unnecessarily harsh. He voluntarily posted the incident here and asked for comments. I don't think he has come across as arrogant at all. But everyone gets the benefit of hindsight and Monday morning quarterbacking, me included. Thanks for posting, Medic. You knew you would be subjecting yourself to being chastized, so that takes some guts. |
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Greg D wrote:It would be interesting to hear Jack's version of this story. I'm sure it would be different.I would also be curious to hear his perspective He would have to have very thick skin to handle the response though. It's too bad we don't get more of these "I had a close call" posts. They're educational, but I can see why not many people post them, when it's a near certainty that someone's going to tear you a new one. Thank you for telling this story Medic. |
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highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote:I don't have any real issue with a 23 year old taking other inexperienced people out and having a learning experience. I think we've all been there. Where I see the problem is his outrageous insistence that he's much more experienced than people have pointed out that he is. Also his bragging about rope tricks that in his mind saved the day. Arrogance and an inability to see it as arrogance caused this problem and unless addressed, will cause more. This isn't about ropes, knots, raps, headlamps, or communication. His attitude was the primary cause and from what I've read, is the one problem he's not concerned about.I think this is spot on. |
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bearbreeder wrote: hmmmm ,,, yr right i had another video somewhere showing the proper scenario i remember years ago someone had a rap accident off el cap ... the loss control after going over the edge it was an extreme example but they were using long static lines so there was a ton of weight below the device ... as one goes down the rope there progressively less friction as there less weight of the rope dangling ... and of course the swap over on the edge puts the full weight of the climber on the rope suddenly ;)If that was directed at me, the video didn't load so your point was lost... As far as losing control - if you have an autoblock, how do you lose control? |
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Stagg54 wrote:if you have an autoblock, how do you lose control?Not enough wraps. |
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Stagg54 wrote: If that was directed at me, the video didn't load so your point was lost... I believe it was directed to my post at the top of the page. Quoting gets messed with by the presence of videos. Stagg54 wrote:As far as losing control - if you have an autoblock, how do you lose control?If you are relying on your autoblock to catch you if you let go then surely you have already lost control. Too many people place too much trust in autoblocks. Most specifically, people who use leg loop attachments which can readily fail. People always tell me their autoblock cannot fail because it is short and snug. But they fail to consider what would occur if they inverted. My recommendation is to extend you belay device if you are hoping for an autoblock to save you during a loss of control incident. Better yet, stay in control. Here is one failure from a bad autoblock: youtube.com/watch?v=3T4FT2S… I generally don't use autoblocks even for many complex raps in waterfalls or where rope detangling is required. |