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Bolted Slab routes - trad, or sport?

Frank Stein · · Albuquerque, NM · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 205

I haven't been back east for a while, but when I did climb there often in the early to mid 90s, mostly in WV, the consensus was that there was no sport climbing in NC. Btw, Rifle is mostly bolted on aid, ground up, is all sport, and all safe.

Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480

You should have to give a correct answer to the question what's the difference between sport and trad in order to give advice round here. Should be like the I'm not a robot thing. Tap on the pictures that have sport routes in them :)

Paul Ross · · Keswick, Cumbria · Joined Apr 2001 · Points: 22,236

Many FFA's in the 70/80's 'were done by aiding the climb first then leaving the pins in place making it a very safe FFA or by moving the pins out of the holes they had made to just above . Of course when stoppers came out about that time in the Barber /Bridwell era this solved many previously aided peg routes . When free climbing one could easily place a stopper in a peg scar but not at all easy to hammer in a protection piton.... Most desert towers were fist aided those later freed benefited from the on the sight cleaning and the ground up bolt placements. ...

Gunkiemike · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 3,492
Ted Pinson wrote:Of course, sport purists would then argue that sport climbing doesn't start until 5.12, so that's where things get messy...
That's total BS. These "purists" you refer to are not the people you should be learning from.

Other than this, I think you're way too hung up on labels. Sport, trad... who gives a flying F what you call it. If you're OK with a bolt every 40 feet, fine. If that scares you away, FINE. Just. Go. Climbing.

And as for "sport climbs are rap bolted, trad bolted routes were equipped ground up"... BWAHAHAHAHA.
JCM · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jun 2008 · Points: 115
Ted Pinson wrote:How would you recommend fixing it?
I've suggested this before on this site, but I think MP should get rid of the "sport" and "trad" designations on route pages altogether. Those are both ill-defined terms with a lot of historical baggage. Instead, routes should have fields for protection type (check all that apply: gear, bolts, permadraws, pads, DWS, etc), and seriousness (G, PG, PG-13, R, X). Someone looking for sport climbs would search for G or Pg rated bolt protected routes, which is much more precise than the vague "sport" term. This also prevents the issue of someone logging a runout old-school sparsely bolted slab as a sport climb.
Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0

How about any route with a bolt every 10ft or less is sport. Everything else is trad and just list the number of bolts on it and what type of protect if any it takes... isn't that easier. I mean most people climbing trad look at information about what type of gear it takes so when they look at a 30-40ft run out slab trad route they will see how bolts only no other gear will fit.

Maybe add do

Sport
Trad (gear) (G, PG, PG-13, R, X)
Trad (half gear) (G, PG, PG-13, R, X)
Trad (no gear) (G, PG, PG-13, R, X)
Boulder (G, PG, PG-13, R, X)

Gear flag tells you if it is bolts only or partly bolts. The G/X rating tells you how runout it is or in the case of boulder how high / dangerous the fall is. Maybe even add a bolt / space count on sport Sport(10/5) is 10 bolts 5ft apart.

Ted Pinson · · Chicago, IL · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 252

^^That wouldn't work at Smith Rock...

Gunkie - Lol that was more of a tongue and cheek stab at those purists than a serious consideration of the ethos...and this thread is mostly a philosophical discussion because I'm bored and my legs are sore I can barely walk because of one of those aforementioned ";;;bolted trad";;; / ";;;R Rated sport";;; climbs. ;)

I think it's fair to say that there is a world of difference between bolting something on lead during a FA and bolting it on aid, even if both are technically ";;;ground up.";;;

Truthfully, though, these distinctions do matter. In south Texas, there are multiple short, bouldery limestone sport areas with bolts every 6 inches (approximately ;) ). There is also a major trad area, Enchanted Rock, that has several bolted slab climbs. Some of them are labeled trad, others are labeled sport. Many of them can't be rapped with a 60m rope and are much more committing/dangerous than any other ";;;sport";;; route in the area, but every once and a while, sport climbers will show up and try to climb there attracted to climbs labeled as multi-pitch sport, leading to numerous accidents and rescues. This kind of nonsense can be avoided if we're clearer and more consistent with how we label and grade climbs.

JCM - that idea would work if it weren't for the fact that just about every guidebook and electronic database in the world already uses ";trad"; and ";sport"; labels, albeit with many of the same problems. I think if we used a radically different system, it would turn a lot of people away from using the site.

Walter Galli · · Las vegas · Joined Sep 2015 · Points: 2,247
Colonel Mustard wrote: Is the inability to get hurt on a sport route the same as the grigri makes belay accidents a thing of the past?
Yep I agree totally...
Walter Galli · · Las vegas · Joined Sep 2015 · Points: 2,247
M Sprague wrote:It depends on the context. For MP entries "sport" simply means all bolt protected so people will know whether to bring gear. It is not the same use of the term as when speaking of the style. The danger factor should be made clear by the protection rating. Run out bolted slab with no gear placements is PG, R or X rated sport in MP context.
Another good point...
Dustin Stotser · · Unknown Hometown · Joined May 2014 · Points: 371
M Sprague wrote:It depends on the context. For MP entries "sport" simply means all bolt protected so people will know whether to bring gear. It is not the same use of the term as when speaking of the style. The danger factor should be made clear by the protection rating. Run out bolted slab with no gear placements is PG, R or X rated sport in MP context.
I agree, however most of the runout slab routes I've looked up on MP indicate no R or X rating. Local ethics in these areas seem to dictate that it's implied.
john strand · · southern colo · Joined May 2008 · Points: 1,640

Depends on your definition of run out...places like Tuolumne,,Stone and Whitesides in NC or a lot of NH climbs may be considered run out now, but were just the standard when they were put up.

i don't consider a 5.11 slab with a 15'-20' space between bolts to be "R" unless your gonna hit something. 30' ? now we are getting somewhere.

We did a 5.11 years ago that we put in a bolt/pin (on lead) when ever we could,,so 5bolts and 2 pins in 90 ' or so..really high quality..

Doesn't get done very much..." too run out"

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065

this is what happens when you take a 100m + slab WHIPPAH ... and dont actually hit anything

slab WHIPPAH !!!

there was no rope involved

its always a good day when you can walk away from a fall from several pitches up ...

;)

Paul Ross · · Keswick, Cumbria · Joined Apr 2001 · Points: 22,236
rosslbeard12 wrote:It's all about the FA we can argue semantics till we are blue in the face, but ultimately style is what makes the distinction. If a said sport climb was put in ground up, that said sport climb is really a "traditional" or trad climb. If a said sport climb was put in on rappel that said "sport" climb is in-fact a "sport" climb. Whether or not the FA decided to put the bolts 30' or 3' apart is beyond the point. Whether the climb is considered safe or a runout death trap is beyond the point. The style in which the climb was created determines its standing as either a sport or traditional climb. I personally think this is very important, and not to be misunderstood. Ground up bolt on lead = Trad Rappel bolted = Sport
When you say ground up bolted on lead is that from Free Stances if not its aid and that should not be considered a FA Trad style... hooking etc Ground up bolting from FREE stances yes that can be considered a trad route ascent.
Walter Galli · · Las vegas · Joined Sep 2015 · Points: 2,247

Woow man how the death look is she beautiful? Or ugly...

Nick Drake · · Kent, WA · Joined Jan 2015 · Points: 651

So by the goofy definitions, if I'm climbing a splitter crack that could be aided incredibly easy does that mean I'm sport climbing?
If I decide to run it out on that same route am I now trad climbing?

I think that the protection grades on a slab route are a perfect way to define whether a slab has run out or not.

M Sprague · · New England · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 5,090
Nick Drake wrote: I think that the protection grades on a slab route are a perfect way to define whether a slab has run out or not.
Yup, and a consensus can be built.
john strand · · southern colo · Joined May 2008 · Points: 1,640
bearbreeder wrote:this is what happens when you take a 100m + slab WHIPPAH ... and dont actually hit anything there was no rope involved its always a good day when you can walk away from a fall from several pitches up ... ;)
R

Nice one bear.....I have gone good ways ,,but not that far !

Good thing 80' didn't change my looks either (cough)
john strand · · southern colo · Joined May 2008 · Points: 1,640

Yes, crack climbing like IC is sport climbing....some busted up little tweaker RP seam is not

Mathias · · Loveland, CO · Joined Jun 2014 · Points: 306

The misguided (or maybe unguided) and incorrect assumption that bolts mean sport, once led a partner and I to attempt a trad route with no gear because we could see three bolts that were rather spaced out. Turned out it had been retro bolted at the bottom to make it safer, but was a gear lead past the 3rd bolt. The guide book (from what I recall) didn't specify that it was trad, so we made a bad assumption. It also quickly became obvious that there was dangerous fall potential on the bolted section too, and had we been looking, we may have found intermittent gear placements.

So now I don't see bolts and immediately think 'sport' unless I see enough of them that the route looks well protected all the way to the anchors.

bearbreeder · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2009 · Points: 3,065
Walter Galli wrote:Woow man how the death look is she beautiful? Or ugly...
the gentleman in question was too busy grabbing a tuffs of grass to stop from going over the slab edge (certain death) to look into her face ...

ive always told him that if he goes ill eat his stringy ole dawg ... perhaps that gave him additional grass gripping power to haul himself off the sharp drop

as to myself ... ill be sure to post up from the other side my friends when it happen to me ;)

one note is that one should ALWAYS bring some trad gear on multipitch "sport" climbs ... a few nuts if nothing else so you can use the wire trick if the hangers are missing

;)
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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