outside corner pitch 3 belay bolts and memorial plaque.

I'm not a local but I am a climber. Keep with tradition: Chop them!

Not a local by any means, but I occasionally climb in the wasatch--coincidentally I spent the last few days camping with my kid in the area--not that it matters...

The anchors look good. If they are, leave them. You probably won't undo the damage, and you might just make it worse. Sure there's a long history of chopping bolts, but there's also a long history of installing quality anchors. To my knowledge, most climbers appreciate a solid bolted anchor. (Grid bolting an obvious trad climb is where most chop-jobs take off...)

The plaque is dumb. There are much better ways to memorialize a dead friend, so I think it should be removed. Usually when I see plaques it's because the person died on the climb. I don't like those either but understand the impulse. There's a huge one at the base of a climb at Sam's Throne in Arkansas that is particularly ridiculous, but I guess the dead climber earned it...? Feel free to remove that one, too.

Hey, since no one that is outraged is actually willing to go actually do the work of removing this stuff from the top of Outside Corner I set up a gofundme to cover the cost/time of me going up there and taking care of this problem.

gofundme.com/2dbw7yz8

So donate a few bucks and I'll make this go away.

I heard the climb is going to be downgraded to 5.6 in the new guide book coming out because of the new bolts. People used to get pumped out building the anchor and peel off.

Tom Grummon wrote:As an aside, I personally believe that chopping bolts is worse than placing them in the first place. Chopping does nothing to repair the rock, and is still an eyesore.

Seriously? Bolts can be chopped and with a good patch job by someone who knows what they are doing the holes can camo'ed more than well enough.

Let's not make excuses and rationalizations for retrobolting or for why retrobolts should stay.

And from reading a little about him it's hard to believe he would appreciate either of these actions.

justa beater wrote:If my temper and ego weren't in check I'd have done it the day I first saw them. Didn't mean to come off snarky, I'm just concerned this kind of thing will keep happening. There are two crags within walking distance of this route that have retrobolted. One route in particular was put up by Conrad Anker on gear and is now grid bolted.

What was put up by Conrad that's now bolted (not arguing, genuinely curious)? What are the two crags? (Assuming geezer is one?)

Healyje wrote: Seriously? Bolts can be chopped and with a good patch job by someone who knows what they are doing the holes can camo'ed more than well enough. Let's not make excuses and rationalizations for retrobolting or for why retrobolts should stay.

I have seen many chopped bolts and it is rarely done well.

As for rationalizations, it seems to me that that is exactly what is going on in this thread from the pro-chopping crowd. "Tradition" is most certainty a rationalization. You use modern gear and techniques, yet all the sudden tradition matters when it comes to this one issue.

Chopping and bolting are the same in my opinion, you are imposing your will and ethic on the climb. There is a time and place for both. But unless it is done properly and well though out, it is usually just ego.

JK- wrote: What was put up by Conrad that's now bolted (not arguing, genuinely curious)? What are the two crags? (Assuming geezer is one?)

One crag is Creekside Wall. Conrad was part of the FA of Alien and Raisin Bran, both have been bolted by someone.

I don't live there but I have done Outside Corner, bolts seem unnecessary and the plaque sounds like an eyesore.

The landowner (USFS) generally forbids plaques/memorials. The SLCA and local climbers have worked hard to develop a good rapport with the USFS, and a plaque like this detracts from that goodwill.

This one seems easy - confirm that it was not permitted, and kindly and responsibly remove it.

Victor Whipping wrote:The landowner (USFS) generally forbids plaques/memorials. The SLCA and local climbers have worked hard to develop a good rapport with the USFS, and a plaque like this detracts from that goodwill. This one seems easy - confirm that it was not permitted, and kindly and responsibly remove it.

YES ,

This drives to the main issue. And is well said:
Joe Platko wrote:
Not a local climber, but as someone who has to drive/fly for hours for a 300' climb, the notion that a 8x5 plaque (for someone who might have died on this climb) could take away a lot of value I get from the climb seems curious at best. I would turn around and take in the view."

Think in the big picture, where could it go? Where will it end?

This must not be allowed.

or get ready to climb past some macabre reminder, of a life cut short. They really are unneeded reminders affecting the mood, sometimes the dates can be unsettling. It is easy to ignore one or two, but when & if everyone wants to have one or two that they are personally or intimately emotionally tied to, what then?

no permanent fixtures in the wilderness.( S. Price ? I always loved that Dew Drop 'thumb nail' pic.)

That seems easy ~

So is This ~
Don't change the full challenge or ignore the historical background,

the guy it is in tribute to, Billy Rothstein
Climbed it, - repeatedly - without the bolts - in the style of the 1st & decades
of subsequent ascents.
From what you can read, Billy did not advocate for taking the easy way out ,
he felt there were lessons to be learned by using climbing gear not just clipping bolts.

sorry that you like anchors,
because if you allow the placement of plaques with out legitimate approval,
the land management will be duty bound to Ban all fixed gear in the wilderness
everything including anchors.

How bad could it get?

Will abandoned gear be subject to fines, what about replacing a bolt ? a criminal act?

before the access , and safe anchors become the victims,

yank the Plaque,

make it clear it would be a shame if the area came under scrutiny of the land manager .
Leave No Trace, Traditional ethics, with a nod to modern safety.
only take pictures & leave only foot prints,
Please..........

Wow!
With respect
RIP
(Now (in edit after a very short check,) in my opinion I would rethink this tribute.

"We will always remember his love of nature, cheerfulness,
friendship, compassion, and his gentle heart.
His tutelage that he leaves with us is;

"Look up, keep climbing, stay true to traditions,
and remember the greatest happinesses
are not gained by easy things. Climb the mountains."
from his:
(sweetheart-spouse) Jami Cirone-Rothstein,

It seems to me, this guy would be upset with this memorial. He seemed to be old school.
Billy Rothstein
Sincerest condolences, to family & friends,

mountainproject.com/v/billy…

justa beater wrote:
Thanks for posting joe, in this case he did not die on the route, he had climbed it a lot, as the sign states more than 300 times.

Was I the only one who noticed someone requesting to be paid to remove the bolts? Via GoFund me? Is this facebook? Where am I?

I get pretty pissed when I top out a route and see where there used to be bolts as I look around for an anchor.

if not for the plaque, there wouldn't even be a discussion here.

chop 'em.

(but for goodness' sake, do it right. pull 'em out, epoxy fill and add properly colored rock fragments)

Tom Grummon wrote: I have seen many chopped bolts and it is rarely done well.

Seen it done well lots of times and do it well myself.

Tom Grummon wrote:As for rationalizations, it seems to me that that is exactly what is going on in this thread from the pro-chopping crowd. "Tradition" is most certainty a rationalization. You use modern gear and techniques, yet all the sudden tradition matters when it comes to this one issue.

You clearly don't know what the word 'tradition' means - it is never a rationalization, it is a simple statement of don't retrobolt.

And there is nothing about 'modern gear' that's particularly modern beyond the initial development of cams unless you count grigris, but then they really aren't about climbing but rather about the hanging. And 'techniques'? Please. Tell me what 'modern techniques' I use or rely on; none I can think of.

Tom Grummon wrote: Chopping and bolting are the same in my opinion, you are imposing your will and ethic on the climb. There is a time and place for both. But unless it is done properly and well thought out, it is usually just ego.

Bullshit. Bolting is rarely 'well thought out'; to the contrary it's usually a gridbolting exercise that runs the length of a cliff and typically less than a third of the 'routes' were worth bothering with in the first place. The rest were entertainment, socializing and ego. Bottom line, retrobolting is a chickenshit, lowest-common-denominator activity and always will be. And there is basically no circumstances where they shouldn't be chopped.

Healyje wrote: Bullshit. Bolting is rarely 'well thought out'; to the contrary it's usually a gridbolting exercise that runs the length of a cliff and typically less than a third of the 'routes' were worth bothering with in the first place. The rest were entertainment, socializing and ego. Bottom line, retrobolting is a chickenshit, lowest-common-denominator activity and always will be. And there is basically no circumstances where they shouldn't be chopped.

Welcome to the new wasatch!
It's about time that we start to police ourselves before it looks like cock canyon!
We obviously don't have anybody on our side that's going to stick up for history and the ethics of the canyons.
At this point it's only a matter of time before the forest service steps in.
And I actually think it might be a good thing because nobody else is going to regulate the bullshit going on In the canyons.

Thank you Healyje for saying it how it is!

Respectfully disagree Healyje. While I would agree that bolting is not always a well thought out process I would also say that to make a blanket statement that everything is grid bolting and ego driven is far from true.
And let's get this straight, this is adding an anchor and a plaque. Far from retrobolting. . He didn't make a bolt ladder up snake dike.
Ironically, usfs probably would not have known about the plaque before this thread.
Carry on your sword fight.

gofundme.com/2dbw7yz8

Paid in full!
But I know the bolts and plaque are gone by now.

Shit oldman river, thanks!
Wow we might be able to turn this shit show into a fundraiser for one of our favorite nonprofit organization's !!! $150.00 so far you punters!

Plaque bolts are those cheesy lead sleeve rigs...easy to pop out.

Jus sayin'.

mikewhite wrote: Shit oldman river, thanks! Wow we might be able to turn this shit show into a fundraiser for one of our favorite nonprofit organization's !!! $150.00 so far you punters!

Yes that was stellar!

A n example of what happens.....
Major jump to a totally different location, I don't understand, is the rock so chossy that it won't hold gear ?

but if someone wants a good go fund me , Here ( this could be funded )
Here it is laid out for you if you need an outline, just ask.

The way " Highway" rock, is climbed now, is to send the people who need to climb here, ?,
to a ledge way off the ground , (4th pitch? ).It Is a disaster in the making,

Submitted By: Nick Sweeney on May 31, 2016, closed, well okay,
1/2? of the wall, the heavily bolted bottom, is closed ! 17 days later!

By Kevin Driscoll. Jun 16, 2016

The first pitch if off limits for access until further notice at the landowners request. You can still climb the upper buttress via access from the parking lot and the climbers trail. There are several excellent routes on the ledge just left of the 4th 10b pitch start for Orion. Makes it worth the hike up to climb these routes.

Five pitch atrocity?

Spokane

Yahy? Orion, Highway Rock

But this is what is now expected?!!!? Not just excepted???

this should be the goal; a go fun'd me chopping trip to a Washington State,
price it out : costs for food , gas (choke) gear
You may need to bring going out to dinner money to help calm the land owners
And I'll bring the Perfect work cord; a 47 year old 45 m (150ft ) 9ml, because I did not
pick up the sweet red & yellow 50 year old pair.

Thank you, OP, Oldmanriver, mikewhite, and whoever is removing/removed the bolts and plaque.
Regarding the convenience of the anchor argument: yes, it's more convenient than the plethora of gear anchor options. Hey, it'd be even more convenient if the whole climb were bolted - no need to bring gear at all. Sure, it'd remove the fun and skill of placing gear. You know what's really convenient? Gym climbing. If convenience is paramount to you, stick to the gym.
Regarding the 'but you use modern gear' argument, yes we do. We use the best tools for the trad game, without changing the game. Building anchors is part of that game.
I'm a local bolt clipping, knee barring, stick clip using local who also climbs some trad.