Near miss at the Gunks

climbing friend,

how do you call the one who shepherds the noob, and can utilize the patience to calm them down and make them think rational on dark and scary belay ledge of multiple pitch?

the noob whisperer?

rgold wrote: No---they weren't sure if the rope would reach. You even quoted it! Whether or not it turns out, after the fact, that it does reach is irrelevant. Sending the newbie down first in the dark on a rappel that might not reach the ground would have been plum loco. But beyond that, you don't let a novice rappeller go first, especially in stressful situations, unless you can belay them as they rap. A 70 m rap would probably have hung up all over the place. The first person down would have to stop, untangle things, and re-toss the rope, probably more than once. In the dark especially, they might rap past a hangup and not be able to clear it from underneath. Then they have to ascend the rope or else they are stuck. If the rope has hung in a tree and the catchpoint is significantly out from the cliff face, you have a difficult and possibly quite dangerous situation even for an experienced person. Or maybe rope does clear and brings rocks or a branch down on the rappeller with it. Putting a newbie in such situations would be extremely negligent. Add to this the fact that they are doing a single-strand rappel (did they remember to double the biners? If so, did doubled biners turn out to provide enough friction for the single strand in question? If not, how does the newbie get more friction once they're part way down the rappel?) Now IF you knew for certain that the rope reached the ground---which the party in question did not---then you might consider lowering the newbie to the ground as a pretty safe option.

It's a pretty simple solution from my perspective. You send Jack down first on the doubled 60m rope to the first rap station. He ties the 70m rope into the doubled 60m at the rappel station and raps to the ground. On the ground he looks for the center mark of the 70m rope and if it is on the ground he has his partners pull up both the 60m and 70m and sends the newbie down on the single 70m. No tangled 70m rope and there are experienced climbers at both ends of the rappel.

If the middle mark of the 70m isn't on the ground, the remaining two climbers come down to the first rappel station(knot/biners joining the doubled 60m to the single 70m strand act as a safety) and pull down the 60m and pull up the 70m and do a double rope rappel to the ground.

Bill Kirby wrote: From the top of CCK its three single raps to the ground via last to be first. It's in the guidebook. So I think a 70M single rap wouldn't make it. I see where you're coming from since one 30m rap and 35 rap gone them to the ground. Maybe this whole thing started after the first rap? I'm missing something? I was hoping either the OP or someone else would elaborate.

Bill,

yes, you are missing something. They weren't rapping CCK. They were rapping Last Will be First.

Bruce Hildenbrand wrote: Bill, yes, you are missing something. They weren't rapping CCK. They were rapping Last Will be First.

I wrote they were rapping from Last will be first in what you quoted!!!!!!! Go back and read what you quoted!!!!! Jeez.. I'm glad Dave and rockandice hit me off with an answer.

rgold wrote: Untying the rappel knots on "Ashley's" rope is almost criminally negligent.

At the risk of getting flamed, I'm going to say that I often untie the knots in the end of the rope when I am the first one down, if the ropes comfortably reach the next ledge/stance. I do make it a point to say something and I hang out there until the next guy gets down. I do this for several reasons. #1, if the rope comfortably reaches the ledge and I am there, there is no way they will overshoot and no way they can go off the end of the ropes. #2 less chance of ever pulling the ropes with the knots still in it. #3 Often I start threading one end through the next anchor so that then when we pull it, it is already threaded.

The issue is not so much untying the knots, but the not saying anything and leaving which left everyone else the impression that the knots were still there. Just goes to show that you should not become complacent and rely on the knots and still need to pay attention to where you are going.

And as rgold correctly pointed out, when you are with beginners you need to take extra precautions. I used to know a guide who always said "Pretend like your clients were hired by your ex wife to kill you and make it look like an accident." They can and will do anything and everything possible to screw up. Even things you hadn't even thought of. You need to bring your A game and give them as little chance to screw up as possible.

rocknice2 wrote:I think they split the raps from the GT ledge. They all arrived at the GT ledge together and with extra rope in hand Jack rappelled on a folder single rope to the mid station. Then from there to the ground on another folded rope. If Ashley has missed the GT ledge (highly unlikely) the next rap would need to be a full length single strand. It would have been impossible to fix that next rap as a double strand. Therefore the rope would have been fixed with everyone at the bottom. I believe she missed the station half way down from the GT ledge.

I agree, since Medic wrote something that everyone seems to have missed:

"...I mis-stated this. We did a total of 3 raps from the top; the first to the GT ledge and it was rapping off the LWBF GT ledge anchor that this occurred."

In any case, Medic, thanks for posting this. I'd climb with you or "Ashley". Not so sure about "Jack". Untying the knots and leaving "Ashley" to be alone in the dark at a rap station is pretty unforgivable. Especially after:

"He was expected to give a firemans belay, this was discussed before we started rapping and he said 'no problem.' "

Yes it is quite clear where this happened now-- if you know the area.

I just want to say that although this was a serious incident and Ashley is very lucky not to have rapped off of the ends, it might benefit us all to be a little less smug about the situation. We can all be a little more humble about trashing these people and remember that most of us have done things in climbing that we've looked back upon and thought, "wow, I'm lucky that didn't go very badly." It is important to learn from these experiences, so careful examination is healthy. But we won't learn all we can if we assume that Medic and/or Jack was an idiot and that nothing like this would ever happen to us.

As I said in my earlier post above, there have been some good suggestions about specific things the people in the party could have done differently. But I think the most important lesson here is that if you let yourself get benighted on a route, with people of mixed experience, then you may be asking for trouble. Communication in this kind of situation is key, and it can be essential to go over things multiple times as everyone is fatigued and in a rush to get down.

I am thankful that Ashley was watching the ends and that this didn't end in disaster.

Michael Schneider
23 hours ago

Or
last climber up ,in fading light , has the situation explained to her,
communicates, that all the climbers understand,
talks the scenario through,

never un-ties,
is lowered to the GT Ledge or station,
using theTrailing rope, the rap line, as a secondary back-up/belay

Anchors herself and the ends of the rope.
second climber raps to GT Ledge joins station,

anchors, yells , off rappel, communicates the circumstances
to the last climber up .

Who , now having freed the 'master-point' rope, can join the GT ledge, there join the ropes &
or lower less experienced, and rap..

After the sunsets dusk is short, it can go from grey to inky black in 10 minutes &
It can be pitch black at the base, while still light, dusk, out from under the shadow & the trees.

No one should untie anything with out saying so to everyone. Make sure everyone has a thorough understanding,
is on the same page.

SethG said
" sorta guessing that when Medic says they topped out on CCK he really means they did one pitch to the GT Ledge.
And then walked over to the LWBF raps-- i.e.,
two stations to the ground.
This doesn't sound to me like a group that would have been happy on the crux pitch of CCK in the dark.
If my guess is correct,
then it is also easier to understand why the newest climber in the group went past the bolts,
since there wasn't any huge ledge like the GT Ledge as a clue.

Lots of people above have offered good advice-- my thought as I read the OP was that Medic should have gone before her and made sure she had a fireman's from below and stopped at the right place.

You also can do a single rap from the GT Ledge at the CCK tree-- the base is higher there. Or tie the two ropes together and do one full-length rap from either the CCK tree or the LWBF chains on the GT Ledge to the ground.

Oh ?!
Not that it matters
While I do get it,
But
the understanding, in TheGunks is that,
while some would throw up their hands at this Obvious case of the blind leading the helpless
~ I don't agree,
it is part of the learning process .

it is crazy & scary what a little knowledge can lead to
~ there is a special nature and sometimes a forgiving nature to learning to climb at the Gunks.
Glad it went well. Good on you for keeping a cool head. day or night, safely executing rescue maneuvers takes that. I may blow it - as may any of you but I know that communication is key.

SethG wrote:...it might benefit us all to be a little less smug...

Agreed, I tried to say the same thing earlier.

SethG wrote:...I think the most important lesson here is that if you let yourself get benighted on a route, with people of mixed experience, then you may be asking for trouble.

Sadly, I think the exact same thing might have happened to this party in broad daylight. I think the essential lesson, which has to do with misplaced expectations of inexperienced people, lies elsewhere.

Bruce Hildenbrand wrote: It's a pretty simple solution from my perspective...

Now you are Monday morning quarterbacking your own answer---you didn't say anything about these rope shenanigans before.

As a general rule, I think it is a bad idea to substitute one-of-a kind-procedures with their own poorly-understood failure modes for safe and effective standard protocols. Although, as it turns out, the distances don't add up to this on LWBF, your proposal in principle could put the climber at the bottom 100m from the people at the top, in a situation in which communication is critical.

And the newly-concocted method still condemns a novice rappeller to a long single-strand rappel that could go badly if they aren't set up properly for it and don't know how to add friction in mid-rappel if their set-up isn't adequate, so lowering should probably have been substituted for rappelling here.

There may be times when creative solutions are necessary, but in the situation discussed here, all that was needed was to follow tried-and-true protocols. Learn the basics and do 'em right when things get stressful, and don't go re-inventing the wheel unless you absolutely have to.

Bill Kirby wrote: I wrote they were rapping from Last will be first in what you quoted!!!!!!! Go back and read what you quoted!!!!! Jeez.. I'm glad Dave and rockandice hit me off with an answer.

Oops! My bad!

Having read this I've picked up a few things I missed from my own analysis of what went wrong:

• **understand group dynamics. I should have made sure that 'Jack' had the same understanding of his role that I had for him in my head (in which he did not have the 'authority' to change a safety system. He had a different perspective and this misunderstanding of our dynamic lead to this near miss.

This is a conversation that would have avoided our misunderstanding of our dynamic leading to this incident. I now strongly believe this conversation is worth having with any group of climbers and will lead to a more 'highly functioning' team:

a) what the role of each climber is
b) As a group designate authority to who can modify a safety system and who can make autonomous decisions. It's kind of like having a 'safety officer' on a scene.
d) how are decisions made, who makes them, make sure the 'team' understands this.

take-away: Jack felt he was autonomous in our group and an 'equal' to myself as a leader and thus felt comfortable modifying a system that I had placed. If he had understood his role and I had made clear that he did not have the designated 'authority' to make the decisions he made I would have maintained the ability to safely manage this group. Rgold, that's a really good point stressing the complexities of group dynamics.

On the way home I was talking with my regular partner who I can, actually (haha), trust with my life about how we communicate and manage our own dynamics he said something that really 'made sense to me.' So, looking at how I climb when I'm climbing hard (for me) with my regular partner there are a few things that make us work really well that are a different mindset from Jack that contributed to these mistakes:

'game face' mentality doesn't change until you're back on the ground and the rap ropes have been successfully pulled. I do NOT celebrate on a summit or relax and have a conversation, it breaks my concentration and lose my edge on the way down. The celebration seems to give people a false sense of 'it's over' and 'I'm safe.'

Obviously more important in Patagonia than it is in the Gunks, but I use that mindset on any climb (and I'm getting ready to get flamed for being no fun for saying that haha). My regular partner shares this mindset and it keeps both of us on our game.

By agreeing and discussing this as a norm I think this has helped keep us very safe as a team, especially when it gets weird on the way down. If I mentally 'celebrated' with them when we were at the top I probably wouldn't have had the 'edge' to problem solve during this emergency.

• **I noticed that Jack/Ashley were both celebrating on the rappel/summit, and I don't think this is a good thing, and I've noticed it's really common for new climbers to do this. I'll talk with them next time I see them about staying serious until you get to the ground when it's time to crack a beer and walk down the Carriage road cause the only thing you have to worry about are the *&$(ing snakes.

Recognizing this I will include a conversation about continuing a 'game face' mentality until the party is on the ground when I'm with someone I don't have 100% confidence in. If you've got your shit together, freed the nose, insert impressive thing here, and it's just you and me climbing together; that's a different story.

So +1 for group dynamics. Good observation rgold.

Stagg54 wrote: At the risk of getting flamed, I'm going to say that I often untie the knots in the end of the rope when I am the first one down, if the ropes comfortably reach the next ledge/stance. I do make it a point to say something and I hang out there until the next guy gets down. I do this for several reasons. #1, if the rope comfortably reaches the ledge and I am there, there is no way they will overshoot and no way they can go off the end of the ropes. #2 less chance of ever pulling the ropes with the knots still in it. #3 Often I start threading one end through the next anchor so that then when we pull it, it is already threaded. The issue is not so much untying the knots, but the not saying anything and leaving which left everyone else the impression that the knots were still there. Just goes to show that you should not become complacent and rely on the knots and still need to pay attention to where you are going. And as rgold correctly pointed out, when you are with beginners you need to take extra precautions. I used to know a guide who always said "Pretend like your clients were hired by your ex wife to kill you and make it look like an accident." They can and will do anything and everything possible to screw up. Even things you hadn't even thought of. You need to bring your A game and give them as little chance to screw up as possible.

Haha I hope after reading this it might change your practice! Here's an idea for an alternative:

1) arrive first at station
2) anchor with a tether and weight the tether to test it
3) pull slack through ATC, keeping device on the rope, so that next climber can rap
this way if the follower loses control the rope is right in front of you to pull down for a firemans. You are paying attention to your partner, right? ;)
4) with ATC still in system untie safety knots in rap ropes and thread through next set of rings
5) second climber arrives without risking rapping off ends in a worst case scenario

Or just leave the knots in, but you want your system to always be set up for that worst case scenario

Aleks Zebastian wrote:climbing friend, how do you call the one who shepherds the noob, and can utilize the patience to calm them down and make them think rational on dark and scary belay ledge of multiple pitch? the noob whisperer?

myah that made my day.

Stagg54 wrote: At the risk of getting flamed, I'm going to say that I often untie the knots in the end of the rope when I am the first one down, if the ropes comfortably reach the next ledge/stance.

Please don't ever climb with me.

The knots are there to keep an unanticipated event from leading to death. In your scenario, a chunk of falling ice or rock, a freak lightning strike, an ischemic or anaphylactic event, anything like that could cause the rapper to whiz down the rope, past you on your "obvious" ledge.

Gunkiemike wrote: Please don't ever climb with me. The knots are there to keep an unanticipated event from leading to death. In your scenario, a chunk of falling ice or rock, a freak lightning strike, an ischemic or anaphylactic event, anything like that could cause the rapper to whiz down the rope, past you on your "obvious" ledge.

Thank You, as one who can talk directly to this issue, I think your restraint till now is
a show of professionalism, that maybe misplaced.
The Op , medic741, is 23 ? He is in the upward curve of the learning curve,
& as a newer climber himself, ,( just a few months ago asking where to go to practice rappelling ?)
He should -not be - climbing past dusk. Starting up, without knowing how long the raps are, Taking responsibility for less experienced or novice Climbers, Among other things

He should spend the time & money to hire you , GunkieMike , or a guide of equal skill.

Michael Schneider wrote: The Op , medic741, is 23 ? He is in the upward curve of the learning curve, & as a newer climber himself, ,( just a few months ago asking where to go to practice rappelling ?) He should -not be - climbing past dusk. Starting up, without knowing how long the raps are, Taking responsibility for less experienced or novice Climbers, Among other things He should spend the time & money to hire you , GunkieMike , or a guide of equal skill.

Mike, why is it for you to be so hard on Matt? To be reading this forum makes Matt sound pretty much doing good work and taking the feedback very well. Is 23 too much young to climb "after dusk" from the opinion you have? Gosh, I know many young climbers that are very much rock solid on safety and self rescue in many diverse climbing environments. And you maybe read too much into who Matt is by looking at the Medic741 info here on this Mountain Project.

Send some love to his way, it feels better.

i must Say I
learn ed something new from this thread so (thank you everyone.
I have rapp ed first and removed my atc to give firemans but a strand got away because 2nd rap was not directly below the first .
and i had
to lasso it in with a big sling which {luckily
worked so i could give the firemans-

I never thought to leave the atc-on-and
just
give slack for the next person down.

I either leave my device on the rope or throw a Munter hitch on a carabiner on the belay loop. That way you can sit down on the rap rope to apply the fireman's belay rather than pulling with your hands, and yes you keep control of the strands.

If the upper rappel comes down off to the side, unclip the device from the harness and put it on the anchor and fireman directly off the anchor.

I appreciate the tip, thanks rgold.

lot of yapping

- untying the ropes is fine if all partners understand it and the first rapper at the station (SUPERVISED) ... in fact if theres rope its better to retie them to the anchor in a J loop overhand so that the rope wont swing out of reach on traversing raps and theres absolutely no way the next rapper can miss the station

- if both partners understand the risks, untying to thread through while the other partner is setting up is also fine (SUPERVISED) ... you can do this while keeping a hand on both strands ready for a firemans ... of course in this case there was no reason as they had another rope

- bringing up two newbies is perhaps not the best idea especially when topping out in the dark ... if you are belaying two inexperienced seconds you should be fairly well versed in self rescue

- newbies do the stupidest things (we all did) ... basically you have to spell out exactly what to do and put systems in place to make sure they dont fcuk up

- on a rappel the most experienced person should go first as its the riskiest ... if needed you can prerig all the other rappels on extensions so as to inspect them

- no one should do a multipitch rappel without learning how to ascend a rope ... nor other basic skills such as how increase friction, leg wraps, and how to set a kleimheist one handed

- every person on multi should carry at least two slings, one of which should be at least 120cm .... this includes folks on raps ... this way youll always have the gear to ascent the rope (note sling "PAS" count, commercial ones dont) and other scenarios

-if you need to descend a tensioned rope ... youll need to prussik down ... if theres tension belay devices and munters wont work

heres an accident where the outcome was not good ...

Despite an exausting but successfull summit of Sir Donald via the classic NW ridge this day would prove to be one of the most difficult and sad days of Paulo's and my life. We even talked about mabye not even doing a TR at all but if the lessons told save 1 life it is worth it. Paulo and I saw a woman rap down a rope which did not reach the ground. We pointed it out thinking all right she will stop and we will somehow get out there and pull her in. Well running a normal ATC on a twin rope gave little friction and it became apparent she could not hold on. I was roped up for a rap on a pair of bolted rings about 15 feet away and with Paulo's help pendulumed out to get her to tie a knot in the rope below here. By the time I leg wrapped the rope to give myself the friction I needed to free my hands and tie the knot she was gone. I won't talk about what we saw after but know it's a moment in our lives that will forever be etched into our memeories. I greive for her family and feel so much guilt that we could not reach her in time.

Take away one of these 5 scenarios and the out come is different.

1 Rope didn't reach the ground

2 Ends not tied

3 Right size ATC for a twin rope

4 no back up prussik

5 lack of knowledge on how to create additional friction.


forums.clubtread.com/27-bri…