Bolted Slab routes - trad, or sport?

So, this is more of a philosophical thread than anything, but I got to thinking about it after seeing a route that was listed as trad but with protection: "bolts." I then saw another route in the same area that was listed as an R-rated sport climb. This got me thinking: which one is right? While I would ordinarily think of any climb that is completely bolt protected is sport, most bolted slabs I've encountered follow more of a trad ethos (bolted from ground up, super run-out). I've ever heard of ridiculous slab climbs that are protected by like 1 or 2 bolts for 300 feet...hardly what one thinks of when they think of "sport" climbing. The nature of slab makes it often impossible to protect with removable pro, thus justifying the use of bolts on otherwise clean trad climbs. However, when defining each discipline, the emphasis is usually on bolts vs gear.

What, then do you consider run-out bolted slabs?

Ted Pinson wrote:What, then do you consider run-out bolted slabs?

Climbing

Not sport. Bolt-protected traditional climbs.

So what makes a route "sport" or "trad," then?

Ted Pinson wrote:I then saw another route in the same area that was listed as an R-rated sport climb.

This is probably what threw you off. There really should be no such thing as an R rated "sport" route. Whoever wrote that may have the mistaken idea that bolt protected = sport in all situations. I can think of 10c slab route in Yosemite that has all of 4 protection bolts - and no other pro - in 50m. That is no sport route.

When sport climbing got it's start in the 80s there were already bolted slabs. The term sport route had not yet been coined when many of these slab routes were done. The only way to protect slab routes was with bolts - this notion is supported by the lack bolts where natural/crack pro is found. Many (with many exceptions) of the slab routes were put in on-sight and on lead - a traditional lead technique not employed on sport routes. The distance between bolts on slab routes would not be deemed appropriate at sport areas. The reason for the spacing on slabs was the significant challenge of placing bolts on lead coupled with the lack of stances found on many slab routes. Lastly, the rationale for sport climbs is different - making the pro easy and safe so climbers can concentrate on the difficulty of the climb while not being distracted by placing gear or from fearful/dangerous run-outs.

Ha hahahah this one again.....

Just cause the climb only has bolts, doesn't mean its sport. Go look at some of the climbs on the Royal Arches Apron.... Shakey Flakes, GBG, Reefer Madness are not sport climbs... they average about 3 bolts per pitch.

As mentioned up thread those sort of climbs are just climbs.

You can find "R"rated sport climbs... at Williamson there was one, where if you blew like the 4th clip one would swing down and into the face.... this one broke many ankle bones.

So the evidence was presented to the committee and a person was ordered to go and fix the mess.... adding one bolt was all it took to make the climb safe and no more ankles were sacrificed.

That is Sport Climbing.

Yeah. If it were a trad route, the response would have been: "man up." Lol.

I agree with what appears to be the consensus that they are trad routes (if anything - good point about them being drilled before there was such a thing, as the routes I was doing were) and that there really shouldn't be such a thing as R-rated sport climbs (bad bolting). I have, however, climbed what I would consider sport slabs at Red Rocks that felt totally safe and were bolted every 10 feet. Of course, sport purists would then argue that sport climbing doesn't start until 5.12, so that's where things get messy...

My first and only time at j tree my partner and I were in the parking lot eyeing up walk on the wild side. A local gave us a bit of advice. That thing has bolts on it but it's no sport route.

I personally refer to them as trad bolted but I always remember that but of advice when I think of run out slab.

No, things do not get messy. Sport routes are bolted so that falling is safe. There are actual sport routes out there that are quite run out, particularly in older European areas, but the falls are, as a rule safe, if quite long.

SPRAD!

I know lots of sport routes that are bolted in such a way that if you fall during any clip you will deck. I tend to avoid them or just top rope because it just isn't worth it to me.

First bolt 20ft off the ground, 2nd bolt 35-40ft off the ground, anchor at 70ft etc you can call it bad bolting but it still is a "sport route" and if you fall during a clip likely to deck.

I also know of slab trad routes that are similar in that you can place gear but risk decking at every placement with no possible placements inbetween.

ViperScale wrote:I know lots of sport routes that are bolted in such a way that if you fall during any clip you will deck. I tend to avoid them or just top rope because it just isn't worth it to me. First bolt 20ft off the ground, 2nd bolt 35-40ft off the ground, anchor at 70ft etc you can call it bad bolting but it still is a "sport route" and if you fall during a clip likely to deck. I also know of slab trad routes that are similar in that you can place gear but risk decking at every placement with no possible placements inbetween.

Not a sport route. At all.

That is north carolina sport routes... pretty common to be honest. I always feel so relaxed outside of my state climbing sport.

ViperScale wrote:That is north carolina sport routes... pretty common to be honest. I always feel so relaxed outside of my state climbing sport.

NC sport route
Zues
NC sport route
Blind Prophet
Not a NC sport route
Great White Way
Not a NC sport route
Mercury's

Yet all are bolt protected

Ted Pinson wrote:So what makes a route "sport" or "trad," then?

The real distinction has largely been lost over time and reduced to whether a route bolted or not.

Originally the distinction and debate wasn't the bolting (however objectionable), but rather the tactics which were considered even more objectionable than the bolts at the time. Some even argued for a a rating attribute which would designate what tactics were used to do an FA. But over 35 years those sport tactics have instead come to define what climbing 'is' for most climbers who come up through gyms which is to say most all climbers these days.

Well bolted Sport climbs tests physical ability .. Sparsely bolted Slab climbs tests nerve. More often Sport routes are bolted from above.... .Slab climbs have usually been bolted on lead from below.

John Wilder wrote: Those are not sport routes. They're trad climbs. Sport climbing, while only protected by bolts, is not defined by them. Sport climbing is about climbing a route without concern of being hurt in the event of a fall. Being able to focus on the difficulty of the movement alone is what defines a sport climb. Anything else is a trad climb.

Is the inability to get hurt on a sport route the same as the grigri makes belay accidents a thing of the past?

Inability under proper use. Obviously, you can backstep and flip upside down on any sport route (or gym route, for that matter); that doesn't mean the route itself is unsafe. If you injure yourself on a properly bolted sport route, it's your fault or your belayer's.

Can it really be trad if you never place a single piece of gear?

Russ Keane wrote:Can it really be trad if you never place a single piece of gear?

As other have already indicated, it most certainly can.