Near miss at the Gunks

First, I know I've posted a lot today. Sorry for stalking! I don't wanna work today :)

Medic,

Maybe I'm the only one but I appreciate that you posted this. I've, and I'm sure many posters here have to, been in a similar situation. Thank you for your time.

I suck at rock climbing so I've partnered up with some "Jacks" in my time. To make a long story short I met a Jack years ago. He told me he was a 5 hard trad leader. The end of the day we spent time building gear anchors... With his new trad rack... That still had price tags attached to the nuts.

Learn but don't be too hard on yourself :)

When I started climbing with my son he was about 10 or 11. I would extend his belay device, and make him load it on the rope. After I checked his setup I would load my atc below his and have him check mine, then I would rap down. The extended atc allowed him to move around a bit while his atc was locked on the loaded rope. Once I reached the bottom of the belay I would fireman belay him as he belayed.

This works really well and my partners and I have done the same thing when things are not going well, e.g. after dark, cold, wet, very tired, etc.

^+1 Bill. Great practice!

Medic741 wrote: @Em Cos Seriously?

Um... yes, seriously?

I can't help further without knowing which of my comments you are incredulous about...

How far away was the second rap station from the initial rap line? Maybe put an extended runner from the top of the second station clipped to the rope of the initial rappel. Ashley gets to a sling clipped to her tap lines and would not be able to pass the second station..... Maybe, unless she has to I'll clip and walk unprotected along a ledge to get to the second station.

Hey thanks for posting. I really love the discussion . Don't take the hard knocks too badly.

JSH wrote:BFrom there I called up that she should start rappelling. She could not get the rappel started, probably due to the weight of the ropes. She utterly panicked and had a fit, crying, could not help herself, was convinced I'd left her to die, etc., etc. Thank GOD there were people at the ledge who helped her figure herself out. So: even the 'right' solution can get messed up and require intervention.

You sound smooth with the ladies. That's F'ing hysterical.

Bill Kirby wrote: It's 3 raps to the ground? 2 double raps right?

Nope! Read the entire report. They did two raps, each with a single (doubled) rope, to reach the ground.

"I wasn't sure if we could get down in a single rap so we decided to do 2 rappels over the Last Will be First stations. Jack rappelled first, with the second rope and prepared that second rappel while Ashley, the new climber was rappelling."

I stand by my original statement. The newbie should have rapped to the ground on the single 70m.

Bruce Hildenbrand wrote: Nope! Read the entire report. They did two raps, each with a single (doubled) rope, to reach the ground. "I wasn't sure if we could get down in a single rap so we decided to do 2 rappels over the Last Will be First stations. Jack rappelled first, with the second rope and prepared that second rappel while Ashley, the new climber was rappelling." I stand by my original statement. The newbie should have rapped to the ground on the single 70m.

From the top of CCK its three single raps to the ground via last to be first. It's in the guidebook. So I think a 70M single rap wouldn't make it. I see where you're coming from since one 30m rap and 35 rap gone them to the ground. Maybe this whole thing started after the first rap? I'm missing something? I was hoping either the OP or someone else would elaborate.

Corey27 wrote:I've never understood the phrase "near miss". To me that should be a hit.

I have a friend that's never gotten over this. Near and close are synonyms and can be interchanged to make it more understandable. You wouldn't call a "close miss" a hit, would you?

Sorry, I don't have anything to add to the actual conversation as it's been pretty well hashed out already.

Bruce Hildenbrand wrote: "I wasn't sure if we could get down in a single rap so we decided to do 2 rappels over the Last Will be First stations. Jack rappelled first, with the second rope and prepared that second rappel while Ashley, the new climber was rappelling." I stand by my original statement. The newbie should have rapped to the ground on the single 70m.

No---they weren't sure if the rope would reach. You even quoted it! Whether or not it turns out, after the fact, that it does reach is irrelevant. Sending the newbie down first in the dark on a rappel that might not reach the ground would have been plum loco.

But beyond that, you don't let a novice rappeller go first, especially in stressful situations, unless you can belay them as they rap. A 70 m rap would probably have hung up all over the place. The first person down would have to stop, untangle things, and re-toss the rope, probably more than once. In the dark especially, they might rap past a hangup and not be able to clear it from underneath. Then they have to ascend the rope or else they are stuck. If the rope has hung in a tree and the catchpoint is significantly out from the cliff face, you have a difficult and possibly quite dangerous situation even for an experienced person. Or maybe rope does clear and brings rocks or a branch down on the rappeller with it. Putting a newbie in such situations would be extremely negligent.

Add to this the fact that they are doing a single-strand rappel (did they remember to double the biners? If so, did doubled biners turn out to provide enough friction for the single strand in question? If not, how does the newbie get more friction once they're part way down the rappel?)

Now IF you knew for certain that the rope reached the ground---which the party in question did not---then you might consider lowering the newbie to the ground as a pretty safe option.

Medic, you've always seemed a good, competent, caring guy on here. IMO, those who have the balls to say in public "I made a mistake, here's what I learned, what else should consider" are far better climbers than those who think they're immune.
I'd happily climb with you or "Ashley".

A question, though? If the other rappel ropes were within reach, and she had even a few bits and pieces on her harness, could she not have just transferred her rappel to the other rope(s)?

Also, I would argue that no one should climb with anyone, if you personally don't understand what is going on. Experience and judgement only come with time, but there is no excuse for not packing in knowledge and a few basic skills right from the start.

The first thing I learned, just as luck would have it, was ascending a rope with prussik and Purcell's. Number two, and first time outside, I think, was rapelling. I consider myself very fortunate to have it work out that way, and would argue that any beginner not only can learn this, but should, for their own safety. And, have some stuff on your harness to protect yourself from other's mistakes.

Medic, I'm sure you've hashed this out in your head pretty thoroughly. Number one red flag, though, that you pushed through, was that it was dark. To me, that's where the dominoes started tumbling.

Super, super glad everyone's okay and you posted up. Thanks!

Dustin Stotser wrote: I have a friend that's never gotten over this. Near and close are synonyms and can be interchanged to make it more understandable. You wouldn't call a "close miss" a hit, would you? Sorry, I don't have anything to add to the actual conversation as it's been pretty well hashed out already.

Yeah but then saying "I nearly hit the target" and "I closely hit the target" are not the same thing at all.

I think some of the comments about Medic's handling overdo it. He was the most experienced person, but is neither a guide nor a shepherd. The group had its own dynamic, and that might not have included marching to the orders of a leader. People did stuff and not all of it was right. "Jack" effed up big time, but his experience and mental attitudes were probably not predictable. As the mistakes unfolded, it was almost but not quite too late to take corrective action, and fortunately "Ashley" was on top of the situation when it mattered most. Considering how many much more experienced people have rapped off the ends of their rope in broad daylight, she deserves a lot of credit for maintaining vigilance.

This is a classic example of how a sequence of small errors leads to, or nearly leads to, a fatality. Those of us now in the Monday Morning quarterback position have an easy day of it, but if you play this game long enough, you're going to make some very stupid mistakes. This doesn't excuse making them, but it does mean not beating a man when he's already down. He exposed himself to this criticism out of a decent urge to help others avoid something like this. So it's time to stand him up, brush him off, thank him for the discussion, and go our separate and hopefully just a little bit safer ways.

I think they split the raps from the GT ledge.
They all arrived at the GT ledge together and with extra rope in hand Jack rappelled on a folder single rope to the mid station. Then from there to the ground on another folded rope.

If Ashley has missed the GT ledge (highly unlikely) the next rap would need to be a full length single strand. It would have been impossible to fix that next rap as a double strand. Therefore the rope would have been fixed with everyone at the bottom.

I believe she missed the station half way down from the GT ledge.

RGold's last comment +1

I think rocknice2 has the only explanation that makes any sense. And that being the case, my comment about "Ashley" missing the ledge being "incomprehensible" is way off-base. But it also means that "Jack's" actions were even more negligent and less understandable than before.

My wife complains that when I get lost driving, I immediately start driving faster. Why should we be in a rush when I don't know exactly where I am going? Aren't I more likely to miss the next turn and just get us even more lost? Well...yes. She's right on all counts. But there is something instinctive, even if very wrong, about trying to get out of a mess quickly.

Fogetting about driving in general and domestic relations in particular, one of the important things to do in most (yeah but not all) bad climbing situations is to slow down. Let's just sit down and talk through exactly how we're going to do this. Let's take a little extra time to double-check things as we move along. Let's vocalize what we intend to do next and attend to the response of our partners. In short, let's go against the instinctive urge to get the hell out of here and actually act in our own best interest.

Joe Platko wrote:RGold's last comment +1

Yup. Up a bit. :-)

BillS wrote: It really reads to me like he came to this forum essentially to throw Jack under the bus with Ashley as witness, all while attempting to portray himself as some sort of hero in the situation. Thanks for your thoughts, and I generally agree, but I think I'll watch this one burn.

Yes, Jack went under the bus, but Medic is the one who came on here and manned up. Jack could always do the same. If you don't have the imagination to picture yourself ever making a similar, or any, mistake, which is also what breeds empathy, who is the safer climber?

Accidents and near miss reports is one way to learn. If this thread just teaches/informs one person about safe approaches to climbing then that is a good thing that Medic has done.

Dave Schultz wrote:You basically assumed the role of a professional guide without being prepared or trained to properly execute it. .... You lost any semblance of control which allowed your group to get spread over the entire face of the cliff, at night (you on the top, Ashley in the middle, and Jack on the ground), unbelievable.

It isn't clear that Medic did assume that role and that might be half the problem. Though there is a difference between being a responsible leader and a professional guide. Medic likely went out with those three not expecting to be a guide or a 'shepard'.

Because of my involvement in a local climbing club I often shepherd noobs. For that reason I will readily switch on 'Shepard' mode if I am out climbing with inexperienced climbers. Not everybody has had this experience.

rgold wrote:I think some of the comments about Medic's handling overdo it. He was the most experienced person, but is neither a guide nor a shepherd.

I agree. Though would point out that shepherding is often an ethical obligation that arises when climbing with people who would otherwise not be on that terrain without your presence. It could even be a legal obligation in some circumstances.