Do you stick clip? Why or why not?

Firestone wrote:Sure I stick clip! Safety first, that's why I carry a mad rock trigger wire. I put it on a draw and take it on every trip just in case I need to stick clip. Its easy enough to stick the trigger wire caribeaner on an extendable hiking pole or a big stick with a hair tie and then I don't need to bring a pole like the super clip, just my hiking poles.

Or some tape, a big stick, and a small little stick to wedge in between the gate and the spine of the carabiner.

that guy named seb wrote: But as i like to say chalk, rope, draws, shoes belay partner it's ALL aid.

So you resurrected a thread that's almost two years old just to say it's "ALL aid"?

LOL

don'tchuffonme wrote: So you resurrected a thread that's almost two years old just to say it's "ALL aid"? LOL

just looked at the dates, the sport climbing forum really doesn't get much traffic.

I don't stick clip because I can't afford one.

^ U should start a ... gofundme account

Alexander Stathis wrote: Or some tape, a big stick, and a small little stick

Yea I could do that, are you suggesting it's easier than a piece of gear designed to do exactly the same thing? I know how to Start a camp fire by rubbing two sticks together but I bring an alcohol stove and leave the sticks for emergencies when I have nothing else.

John Wilder wrote:We have long since passed the time when stick clipping was frowned upon. Ever watched any hard sport climber do a full route? They ALL start with the first one or two bolts clipped. (go ahead and tell Ondra AND Sharma they 'aided' La Dura Dura by having the first one or two bolts pre-clipped) Plenty of routes are equipped to be stick clipped because stopping to clip below a certain point is dangerous- so the first bolt goes high and you're meant to pre-clip. The sad thing is, given the number of people either amazed or confused by a stick-clip, most don't even know what they are or why they are used. I'm continually amazed to often be the only person at the crag with a stick clip- especially in Red Rock, home of often fragile sandstone. I've watched people crater off of routes meant to be stick clipped and been annoyed because I had just spent 5 minutes trying to convince them to use the damn thing, only to be told that they dont believe in stick clipping. And now I have to possibly rescue their dumb ass. At the end of the day, i'm not sacrificing a single moment of climbing because I was too dumb not to have the first bolt clipped. That's just silly, and frankly, climbing is silly enough as it is.

1000 x cent...

that guy named seb wrote: But as i like to say chalk, rope, draws, shoes belay partner it's ALL aid.

rope, draws, and partner don't even fit into the joke of it is all aid... they don't provide any benefit for progressing upward on the wall (well rope is used for swings but that is considered aid aka 5.10 if you climb the route 5.7 A0 if you use the rope to swing, draws could also be used to pull on but most normal uses are not). Chalk and shoes on the other hand do provide help and there are alot of cases where without it you could not make it.

If the name of the climb is Run For Your Life or anything dealing with death or put in the 80's you might want to sick clip the second bolt not the just first bolt. You might also leave the stick at home and climb within your climbing ability. Fall once at the crux not at every single bolt. Sometimes the crux is before the first bolt but most of the times it is not. The Run For Your Life crux is not between the first and second bolt but you might have a nasty fall if your belayed sucks.

Usually, I don't carry a stick clip but my climbing partner uses one as a walking stick. Last weekend I did use it to clip the first bolt on a climb at lake point and every one around laughed at me not for using one but because the bolt was 7 ft of the ground. So I stick clipped the second one 12 ft of the ground. I could have clip the 3rd one but that would be ridiculous.

ViperScale wrote: Chalk and shoes on the other hand do provide help and there are alot of cases where without it you could not make it.

Shoes, I buy, but chalk? I doubt there are any climbs that couldn't be done without chalk

As for the OP, I don't stick clip because I have yet to find a reason to use one. I have yet to run into a scenario where I couldn't climb something without the first (or 2nd) bolt clipped, yet could climb the route with it clipped. And even if I had encountered such a route, I don't have to climb it. The exception would be an aid route where I need a stick clip to reach the next bolt/pin/piece because I'm 5'4 with a negative ape index.

I had a very rough tumble down a 50 foot gully in Arapiles b/c I was too dumb to get a first piece of gear in before leaving the ground onto exposed terrain. I was extremely lucky my belayer was anchored or I would have taken her down the gully with me. This potentially deadly accident is also possible sport climbing. Always, always, always protect yourself and your belayer if possible before leaving the ground.

eli poss wrote:As for the OP, I don't stick clip because I have yet to find a reason to use one. I have yet to run into a scenario where I couldn't climb something without the first (or 2nd) bolt clipped, yet could climb the route with it clipped. And even if I had encountered such a route, I don't have to climb it.

I think you're missing the point a little. It's not that you couldn't climb the route without the first bolt pre-clipped, but consider:
1) the landing is really bad
2) the moves up to the first bolt may be almost as difficult as the crux eg: 11c or d moves on a 12a
3) the usefulness of a first bolt lower than 15 or so feet is extremely fleeting before you're immediately in ground fall range again. The original idea of a first bolt at 15' - 20' saves placing a bolt as well as eliminating a dangerous clip. Remember, stick clipping became popular with the advent of sport routes where FAists intentionally placed the first bolt high with the full expectation that it would be stick clipped. Recall that sport routes are not supposed to be R rated.

Do whatever you like, of course, but please stop arguing about it. It is common, accepted practice in sport areas.

Read the post by KCP up thread from 2014 and then there's this from John Wilder which bears repeating:

"""""""""""""
We have long since passed the time when stick clipping was frowned upon. Ever watched any hard sport climber do a full route? They ALL start with the first one or two bolts clipped. (go ahead and tell Ondra AND Sharma they 'aided' La Dura Dura by having the first one or two bolts pre-clipped) Plenty of routes are equipped to be stick clipped because stopping to clip below a certain point is dangerous- so the first bolt goes high and you're meant to pre-clip. The sad thing is, given the number of people either amazed or confused by a stick-clip, most don't even know what they are or why they are used. I'm continually amazed to often be the only person at the crag with a stick clip- especially in Red Rock, home of often fragile sandstone. I've watched people crater off of routes meant to be stick clipped and been annoyed because I had just spent 5 minutes trying to convince them to use the damn thing, only to be told that they dont believe in stick clipping. And now I have to possibly rescue their dumb ass. At the end of the day, i'm not sacrificing a single moment of climbing because I was too dumb not to have the first bolt clipped. That's just silly, and frankly, climbing is silly enough as it is.
"""""""""""""

Marc801 wrote: I think you're missing the point a little. It's not that you couldn't climb the route without the first bolt pre-clipped, but consider: 1) the landing is really bad 2) the moves up to the first bolt may be almost as difficult as the crux eg: 11c or d moves on a 12a

1) Don't fall or choose a different route. If you have an irresistible desire to climb this route either get stronger/more confident or bring a crash pad.

2) Perhaps I need to climb harder to understand, but why does this matter? If you can't handle 11c moves then you shouldn't be on a 12a. If I needed to be on TR for the crux of the climb, or something easier than the crux for that matter, then I wouldn't think about leading it.

As for that quote, not everybody wants to avoid risk. With risk one may often find reward. If you don't want to risk injury, you may want to take up a different activity.

eli poss wrote: 1) Don't fall or choose a different route. If you have an irresistible desire to climb this route either get stronger/more confident or bring a crash pad. 2) Perhaps I need to climb harder to understand, but why does this matter? If you can't handle 11c moves then you shouldn't be on a 12a. If I needed to be on TR for the crux of the climb, or something easier than the crux for that matter, then I wouldn't think about leading it. As for that quote, not everybody wants to avoid risk. With risk one may often find reward. If you don't want to risk injury, you may want to take up a different activity.

Ok, we get it, you don't sport climb. Or when you do, you don't climb routes that you can't onsight. Some people like to try routes that are too hard for them to onsight, which requires them to rehearse the moves.

Also a crash pad instead of a stick clip? This is sport climbing not gritstone..

eli poss wrote: 1) Don't fall or choose a different route.

Really good advice! Of course, shit happens, and holds break, even on trade routes. Some newly opened areas, for example Miller Fork at Red River Gorge, are notorious for shedding rock, even developers advise to stick clip first bolt.j Bringing a crash pad would definitely make falls safer, but a clip stick is way smaller to pack.

eli poss wrote: 2) Perhaps I need to climb harder to understand

Probably.

eli poss wrote: If you can't handle 11c moves then you shouldn't be on a 12a.

Do you have any experience with climbing ratings? A few weeks ago I flashed a 12a, this past weekend I got my ass handed to me on an 11c and had to climb bolt to bolt for half the climb.

will ar wrote:Do you have any experience with climbing ratings? A few weeks ago I flashed a 12a, this past weekend I got my ass handed to me on an 11c and had to climb bolt to bolt for half the climb.

Big deal. Surely you also recognised different people have different approaches to climbing. So people like to go bowling with bumpers at the sides. Some people don't. Stick clipping and nice closely spaced bolts is like bumper bowling.

There are very good reasons to choose the additional safety. There are also good reasons not to. If safety was the #1 objective then lets just stick clip every bolt and top rop the damn thing.

I've had the painter's pole with wood clamp affixed by hose clamp. Really a fussy, low budget option. I really like the telescoping stick clip now that fits inside a large pack. You can forget about it and it's there when you need it.

patto wrote: Surely you also recognised different people have different approaches to climbing.

Yes, I do and am quite ok with that. Eli seems to have issues with people having different approaches and I was trying to show why others might have a different perspective.

In the Red if we can my crew always stick the 2nd, just makes it better