Beginner Training

First, do NOT do dead hangs yet, or any other climbing-specific training. If you are just starting out, your tendons are not ready for that sort of abuse, and you will not see significant returns because your limiting factor is technique, not maximum grip strength. Wait until at least 2-3 years and when you're climbing at least 5.11/V4 competently.

Second, boulder. If your gym training time is limited, by far the best, most concentrated training you can do is boulder. You're basically focusing on doing hard moves all day and never cheating by weighting a toprope, so you will build power and technique quickly. Building a woody can be good...if you know what you're doing, but I wouldn't recommend it for a beginner unless you know somebody who can set for you. Do you know anyone who leads trad that you can follow in the Gunks? That'll give you a great opportunity to work on volume and counteract the weakness many boulderers have in endurance (unavoidable - if you can't climb 3-4 times a week, your endurance will suck either way).

Good luck!

you're worried about dead hangs and other climbing specific exercises causing tendon problems, but recommend gym bouldering for power training? i don't really agree with this. it really doesn't make any sense. in almost 30 years of climbing, i have never been injured hangboarding, or even campusing for that matter. on the other hand, when i have gone through long periods focusing on bouldering at the gym i have torn labrums in both shoulders, jacked up my elbows, jacked up fingers, jacked up my wrists, jacked up my back, twisted knees, twisted ankles, etc. do you have any real evidence to base your recommendation on?

also, why is there a line in the sand at v4/5.11 being the entry level to more focused training? they don't even equate to each other. you assume that strength isn't his limiting factor, and that technique is his limiting factor. maybe, maybe not. i would say that this depends greatly from person to person, and for every person it probably also depends on route to route. it would be better to try to improve in both areas, and given his schedule this would likely be pretty easy to do. you don't even need 3-4 days a week to build endurance.

OP - I am getting the impression that you don't have an experienced partner for outdoor trad climbing i.e. the sort of climbing that you should be doing to reach your goals. If I've read what you've posted correctly, you travel from NYC area (or thereabouts) to the Gunks on a weekend. And then you solo TR. C'mon, there are literally hundreds of folks coming up here each w/e, and a huge percentage of them are eager to arrange/share a ride, team up with partners, work on moving through the classics etc. No need for you to solo TR... ON A WEEKEND.

Gunkiemike wrote:OP - I am getting the impression that you don't have an experienced partner for outdoor trad climbing i.e. the sort of climbing that you should be doing to reach your goals. If I've read what you've posted correctly, you travel from NYC area (or thereabouts) to the Gunks on a weekend. And then you solo TR. C'mon, there are literally hundreds of folks coming up here each w/e, and a huge percentage of them are eager to arrange/share a ride, team up with partners, work on moving through the classics etc. No need for you to solo TR... ON A WEEKEND.

I agree - you are right. If I try a bit harder I am sure I can find people who are willing to climb at my level, teach and help. Going solo is good to have in the bag when things don't work out with a partner or its a last minute thing or various other reasons, but yes you make a good point and I appreciate the honesty. :)

Try Gunks.com as well as use the partner finder here.

slim wrote:you're worried about dead hangs and other climbing specific exercises causing tendon problems, but recommend gym bouldering for power training? i don't really agree with this. it really doesn't make any sense. in almost 30 years of climbing, i have never been injured hangboarding, or even campusing for that matter. on the other hand, when i have gone through long periods focusing on bouldering at the gym i have torn labrums in both shoulders, jacked up my elbows, jacked up fingers, jacked up my wrists, jacked up my back, twisted knees, twisted ankles, etc. do you have any real evidence to base your recommendation on? also, why is there a line in the sand at v4/5.11 being the entry level to more focused training? they don't even equate to each other. you assume that strength isn't his limiting factor, and that technique is his limiting factor. maybe, maybe not. i would say that this depends greatly from person to person, and for every person it probably also depends on route to route. it would be better to try to improve in both areas, and given his schedule this would likely be pretty easy to do. you don't even need 3-4 days a week to build endurance.

He said he could only get out 1-2 days a week...for that much time, bouldering is the most efficient use of time. It's also the fastest way to build technique. Your anecdotal example is meaningless and irrelevant; the reason why I said not to hangboard is because 1) you wouldn't see comparable returns at that level compared to other things you could do (climb), and 2) muscles strengthen much faster than tendons. Training too much early in your climbing career can lead to injury (30 years is more than enough time, and you could have good genes). So if he's hangboarding, he's either replacing a climbing session (bad - no skill development) or doing it in addition to climbing, which risks overtraining.

This is also a guideline that every professional climbing trainer recommends, so I'm not sure why we're arguing about this. :p

Also, V4 is roughly equivalent to 11+/12-.
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I would say the biggest limiting factors to my current near and mid term "goals" are technique and endurance.

Neils, you mentioned you've been reading a ton of books about climbing. If you haven't already, you might wish to check out The Self-Coached Climber. It has excellent illustrations of basic climbing movements/techniques. During my first 1-2 years of climbing, this book was the most instrumental in helping me improve my technique. Another good book is The Rock Warrior's Way, which will help you up your mental game, especially after you start leading.

With respect to your home gym, you might consider one or two exercises that focus on your latissimi dorsi ("lats"). But of course, strength will only go so far as a substitute for good technique.

Good luck getting finding more time to go outdoors! I'm sure you'll love the Sierras and Red Rock.

FanZ wrote:Neils, you mentioned you've been reading a ton of books about climbing. If you haven't already, you might wish to check out The Self-Coached Climber. It has excellent illustrations of basic climbing movements/techniques. During my first 1-2 years of climbing, this book was the most instrumental in helping me improve my technique. Another good book is The Rock Warrior's Way, which will help you up your mental game, especially after you start leading. With respect to your home gym, you might consider one or two exercises that focus on your latissimi dorsi ("lats"). But of course, strength will only go so far as a substitute for good technique. Good luck getting finding more time to go outdoors! I'm sure you'll love the Sierras and Red Rock.

Rock Warriors Way - I read that - liked it a lot.

So far I have read FOTH, Craig Luebbens Basic Skills, Eric Horst Climbing Indoors and Training for Climbing. Right now I am reading both John Long books - How to Rock Climb and Climbing Anchors.

I will check out Self Coached Climber as well. Thank you for the recommendation.

FanZ wrote:The Self-Coached Climber.

That's definitely a good beginner-intermediary technique book. It covers a lot of rock climbing fundamentals, but not the very dynamic and gymnastic-like movements comp climbers perform these days. Video illustrations would be even better (and I know the likes of even Lynn Hill are working on one).

I don't recommend finger strength training at this stage, purely because if you don't have good upper body strength and movement pattern, you'll end up over-reliant on your fingers & lead to injury on actual climbing moves (it doesn't matter how strong your fingers are, poor body control will unexpectedly overload them). If you can borrow a copy of Gimme Kraft, it actually contains a lot of good strength exercises relevant to climbing, despite what a lot of people here may think.

neils wrote: Rock Warriors Way - I read that - liked it a lot.

If you are a martial artist, I'm not sure how much you'll actually get out of it...the first chapter is kind of fun read.

Anyway, remember, treat mostly what you do for climbing as you would martial arts practices: they are practices, not training.

reboot wrote: If you are a martial artist, I'm not sure how much you'll actually get out of it...the first chapter is kind of fun read. Anyway, remember, treat mostly what you do for climbing as you would martial arts practices: they are practices, not training.

thanks and yes there was a lot of overlap, with martial arts and other spiritual and mindfullness disciplines i have studied and practiced. it was definitely not new to me but putting it in terms of climbing was interesting to read. it certainly didn't hurt. martial arts definitely educated me on aspects of body mechanics and how subtle changes in body position have profound changes on the overall technique. i've been trying to notice it in my climbing based on what i have been reading so far. taking a technique class at the gym next week - that should be cool.

i am pretty sure that a big piece of my endurance lack is a function of novice technique as well. im sure my endurance can improve but as my technique improves it is making huge differences in my endurance. i mean 3 months ago i could go to the gym and do maybe 2-4 laps on top rope and couldn't hold a pencil. now i can do maybe 16 laps in a session and im still pretty good. thats progress of sorts i think.

Ted Pinson wrote: He said he could only get out 1-2 days a week...for that much time, bouldering is the most efficient use of time. It's also the fastest way to build technique. Your anecdotal example is meaningless and irrelevant; the reason why I said not to hangboard is because 1) you wouldn't see comparable returns at that level compared to other things you could do (climb), and 2) muscles strengthen much faster than tendons. Training too much early in your climbing career can lead to injury (30 years is more than enough time, and you could have good genes). So if he's hangboarding, he's either replacing a climbing session (bad - no skill development) or doing it in addition to climbing, which risks overtraining. This is also a guideline that every professional climbing trainer recommends, so I'm not sure why we're arguing about this. :p Also, V4 is roughly equivalent to 11+/12-. mec.ca/AST/ContentPrimary/L…

it looks like he said more often once a week to the climbing gym. i think you are making a big assumption saying that indoor bouldering is the fastest way to build technique. it might be the fastest way to build technique that is consistent for that particular gym, but will it be the fastest way to build technique that is applicable towards where he plans on climbing? IMO, having climbed at a lot of gyms I would say that gym bouldering is generally a good way to build technique for indoor bouldering comps, but not necessarily outdoor climbing. in a lot of ways, it can reinforce bad technique for outdoor climbing.

"This is also a guideline that every professional climbing trainer recommends, so I'm not sure why we're arguing about this." Again, I think you are greatly over-stating this. Are you sure EVERY professional climbing trainer? I have seen climbing trainers with complete gumbies on campus boards, sytems boards, etc at quite a few gyms, so I think this isn't the case...

I can see what reboot is saying about "I don't recommend finger strength training at this stage, purely because if you don't have good upper body strength and movement pattern, you'll end up over-reliant on your fingers & lead to injury on actual climbing moves (it doesn't matter how strong your fingers are, poor body control will unexpectedly overload them)." There is definitely something to be said about this, but for most guys I don't think this will be as much of a concern as they likely have some sort of upper body strength background. I kind of approach this from the opposite side - if you don't have fairly good finger strength you are just as likely to get injured on hard boulder problems, as you will never be able to perfectly control your body movement on every attempt. It really depends a lot on the person - depending on their strengths/weaknesses.

If he can only get into a gym one day a week, i don't see why he should be forbidden to do some supplemental strength training. i think a low volume HB workout combined with some of the Gimme Kraft exercises could work pretty well in this case.

V4 is 12a, 12a is definitely not 11....