Is this safe?

soooo, I have done this a couple times where I set a single line off a tree at the top of a cliff 8 knot on a bite, several tree wraps and clip back to the main line, rappel into a cliff, put myself on belay with my gri gri and climb, as needed I place clove hitched bieners(similar spacing to gear or bolts) in the rope below me to biener block should the grigri fail. It seems safe to me, safe enough that I do it. Am I missing anything? I know this is technically misuse of the grigri but I am assuming the clove hitched bieners are not going to pass through the grigri or otherwise fail.

safe?
thnx for your input

It works but you could just tie knots in the rope too. Pretty standard practice to back up the grigri.

yup basically.

Some info for your brain stomach petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Gener…

Seems fine to me. The only thing I do differently is use a figure-8 follow-through to tie off the tree instead of a locker (put a figure-8 in the rope several feet from the end, wrap the tree one or more times, then follow through the figure 8).

One less thing unattended that could fail, but honestly the difference is trivial at best.

Using a micro-trax is nice because it feeds itself.

When TR soloing, I always rig a backup device in case the first fails (2x minitraxions in my case). In your setup your backup is the gri-gri slamming into a biner clipped to a bolt. Do you trust the grigri to hold that sort of a load? Personally, I wouldn't.

Instead of using clove hitched biners on bolts to act as a block, use another strand of rope and tie some back-up knots into it. Clip those to your belay loop with a locker as you climb up. You'll still fall some if your primary device fails, but the clove on the rope will for sure catch you. You'll have to modify your anchor setup so two strands are hanging down, but that's super easy to do. Using backup knots on another strand also gives you the benefit from the dynamic properties of the rope stretching and catching your fall; the set-up you have now will generate a LOT more force when stopping you.

The grigri failing and thus having to trust it slamming into a biner on a bolt to arrest a dynamic fall probably will never happen, but if it did, I wouldn't want to find out IF it works and would rather stick with something I know works FOR SURE.

Here's something similar to what I'm talking about:

I agree with Aaron. It's always good to have a backup to your primary belay device. It could be just clove hitching a biner below your grigri and clipping it to your belay loop, or having a backup belay device. I use a Trango Cinch and a Micro-cender.

There was a case in Flagstaff where a guy was TR soloing with just a grigri, took a fall, the carabiner broke, and the grigri was still hanging on the fixed line. He lived to tell the story and I don't believe they ever found the carabiner to analyze exactly what happened.

Thanks for the input fellas, I have some tiblocs at all times in my chalk bag, gonna play with adding one of those to my system next time.

yes I am comfortable with the grigri slamming into a biener, especially if said biener is clipped to my gear loop, it tends to bring the rope into the belay position which I assume will slow that impact force just before it ripps off my gear loop, and I'm not that nervous about the impact any way. Just my 2cents there.

My biggest concern would be odd orientation/poorly dressed knot opening the gate on the bieners, I could simply switch to lockers and avoid that.

to clarify nothing in the system is clipped to a bolt. I do this in areas with no bolts usually.

Broken locker but no proof? maybe I can put that 65kn steel locker to use next time lol

I'm just going off your drawing... I would not put myself in the situation illustrated if I can avoid it.

Playing with fire here!

There can be issues with the GriGri that can cause you problems.

For one, if this is your only line of protection to arrest a fall with no backup and it fails... what then?

Secondly, the GRiGri has a release lever that can be compromised in differnt ways (lever held open from the rope running under it, you holding it open, other.)

Third, see number one again.

The device flops around, the carabiner flops around, GriGri grinds against the rock... possible cross-load issue?

I'm sure you already considered the dangers, or you would not be doing what you are doing. I'm just here to tell you there is a safer way.

Everyone's risk tolerance will be different, but when you can mitigate any unsafe issues... do so. You are top rope soloing which means you are most likely by yourself with no help close by.

Clicky

Pay attention to picture number two and especially number three (double/triple check yourself everytime). I would also advise you build an anchor to run your rope to instead of using your rope for both purposes - don't cheat your safety. Everything seems fine and dandy until it isn't, and that can happen very quickly, and on an otherwise whale of a day.

NorCalNomad has it right! "Some info for your brain stomach"

Are the bieners not a back up for the grigri's known lever issues and/or a slow weighting?

If I am confident that a grigri will hold me on a leader fall when I have a legit belayer does the rope solo situation really change any forces put on it? why aren't we backing up all leaders with multiple devices?

can you explain your possible cross load issue?

please explain how using the rope to wrap a bomber tree is "cheating safety" I am not seeing that as an issue. In what way is there a possibility of failure? simplicity is king for me, less things to mess up the better. The only thing I see is that there is only one anchor point as opposed to the standard two points.

I'd recommend using a microtraxion instead of a grigri with a light weight" coil of rope" connected to the bottom. You'll be able to climb with both hands and it will tend the slack automatically as you climb. Reducing a chance of an actual fall. Also either still place safety knots or use a second means of backup. Prusik or a second pulley would work.

McLovin wrote:Thanks for the input fellas, I have some tiblocs at all times in my chalk bag, gonna play with adding one of those to my system next time

tibloc is not meant to catch a dynamic event, e.g. a fall. It can easily strip the rope sheath. I believe the manual warns specifically against this.

McLovin wrote:Broken locker but no proof? maybe I can put that 65kn steel locker to use next time lol

Carabiners can be very weak when loaded wrong, they do break. I just learned recently that a figure 8 can twist itself into a position where it can act as a lever and snap your carabiner in half under bodyweight.

McLovin wrote:If I am confident that a grigri will hold me on a leader fall when I have a legit belayer does the rope solo situation really change any forces put on it? why aren't we backing up all leaders with multiple devices?

The forces do change. There is more friction in a leader fall, and there is somebody holding onto the rope tail and actively managing the device at all times. But as mentioned earlier, you're all alone when you rope solo. Perhaps more care is warranted simply for that.

McLovin wrote:please explain how using the rope to wrap a bomber tree is "cheating safety" I am not seeing that as an issue. In what way is there a possibility of failure?

I agree, a fixed line off a tree is pretty darn solid, and though I'm not a rope soloer I'd be inclined to think that setup would be the gold standard of safety. Perhaps there is something I am overlooking BigFeet, does a moving rope actually increase safety for rope soloing?

McLovin wrote:Are the bieners not a back up for the grigri's known lever issues and/or a slow weighting?

Yes, the carabiners will act as a stop once the GriGri hits it. Still tying knots all the way up the climb though. The point of bringing up the lever issue was to illustrate the device being fumbly, and an unnecessary possible hazard, if compromised, for what you are wanting to do.

McLovin wrote: If I am confident that a grigri will hold me on a leader fall when I have a legit belayer does the rope solo situation really change any forces put on it?

Yes, the forces always change depending on situations involved. I'm not even commenting on forces though, just possible legitimate concerns on using just a GriGri. Clicky

McLovin wrote:why aren't we backing up all leaders with multiple devices?

We are talking about solo climbing. You have no help around. You are not minding the anchor which just so happens to be your one and only life-line. It gets cut from rubbing, comes undone, whatever... bye bye, McLovin.

McLovin wrote: can you explain your possible cross load issue?

While you are climbing all this stuff is clanking and moving around. What happens if the GriGri and carabiner get into a position, that once you fall off the wall, causes the GriGri to be oriented so that the load/force is on the gate... you twist/whatever and pop, there goes the carabiner and you. Probably will not happen, but could, and you are only attached by one thing, again.

McLovin wrote: please explain how using the rope to wrap a bomber tree is "cheating safety" I am not seeing that as an issue. In what way is there a possibility of failure?

Again, we are talking about solo climbing. You have no help around. You are not minding the anchor which just so happens to be your one and only life-line. It gets cut from rubbing, comes undone, whatever... bye bye, McLovin.

McLovin wrote: simplicity is king for me, less things to mess up the better.

I get this. You have to call the shots for yourself, and determine what you will risk - been there and done that.

The setup you're using is completely safe. Use a black diamond gridlock or something similar to prevent cross loading and you can back yourself up with the clove hitches. If you were really freaked out you could put a smaller carabiner on the rope on above the grigri which was small enough (camp nano or mad rock mini) to catch the clove hitch knots IF the gri gri failed, which it won't. The only thing I would say is to make sure to pad your rope when if going over the edge. Unlike when the rope is moving, the saw action on the lip can take its toll on the sheath.

Gridlock
Protect your rope on the edge

Patrick Shyvers wrote: I agree, a fixed line off a tree is pretty darn solid, and though I'm not a rope soloer I'd be inclined to think that setup would be the gold standard of safety. Perhaps there is something I am overlooking BigFeet, does a moving rope actually increase safety for rope soloing?

The point of having two independent lines to climb on is for redundancy. Damn skippy a good solid tree is strong enough for the purpose, but his is only one line over an edge being subjected to constant loading and unloading, moving/rubbing around on whatever. You are not minding/tending to this one line - if something happens to that one line?

Is it safe? Yes. As long as the rope doesn't get cut.

Is it efficient - absolutely not. Grigri USUALLY doesn't self feed. And you need to tie those biner-clove hitch backups. You'll have a much better experience if you use a device or two that is made for this application. There has to be 100 threads on this out there already.

I use the Cinch and just because Trango didn't design it for that use, it works very very well as long as you use the Gridlock to keep it from cross loading. I've solo toproped weeks of routes up in jTree using this method and I can really see no way it would fail. The Cinch allows it to feed perfectly, it's very responsive to locking up and the handle can't disengage the devise unless a person pulls it well past any position that could get hung up on a rope. Best part over the microtrax is that I can just lower myself up and down when working on a crux section and I never have to switch devices when needing to lower.

I have done this and used a little different method for backing it up. Hopefully someone can tell me whether I should've died or not. Instead of leaving the knots with the carabiner dangling below me, I tied a figure-eight on a bight and clipped it into my harness. My thinking being, that if the belay device somehow failed, I would be clipped into the rope below it. Then I would repeat this every so often as I moved up the route.

As long as you clipped the knots to full strength gear loops or your belay loop you did fine.

Jon Hartmann wrote:As long as you clipped the knots to full strength gear loops or your belay loop you did fine.

I guess I could've clarified that, I was clipping into the belay loop.

BigFeet wrote: The point of having two independent lines to climb on is for redundancy. Damn skippy a good solid tree is strong enough for the purpose, but it is only one line over an edge being subjected to constant loading and unloading, moving/rubbing around on whatever. You are not minding/tending to this one line - if something happens to that one line?

Ok, so you're talking about a two independent line system (as shown, for example, in the linked Petzl document), not a single moving line TR-style. I misunderstood.

NorCalNomad wrote:yup basically. Some info for your brain stomach petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Gener…

why not use an established, tested procedure? I totally trust the petzl guidelines.