Beginning to build up a trad rack, what gear is most suitable for Ontario Limestone at the Southern Escarpment?

Hi!

So I have a full sport rack (12 draws) and I also have 4 alpine draws, as well as 4-5 other locking biners outside of my ATC and PAS biners. I'd like to start building up a trad rack, but I'm curious as to what would be the best way to start for a college student who normally climbs on Ontario Limestone, namely at Mt. Nemo, Rattlesnake Point, and Buffalo Crag. (Being a college student I need to be as frugal as possible). I also go to the Adirondacks from time to time.

What would MP recommend for a sport climber trying to get into trad?

Thank you!

Edek,

This question (not limestone-specific) about a first trad rack gets asked weekly or monthly. Use the search feature on MP to find others.

Here's the latest one:

mountainproject.com/v/1st-t…

Find an experienced partner/s with a rack, and start following their leads. Study what they place, when, and how. This will give you an idea of what type of gear works for your area/climbs.

Pay attention to how much gear they place. As a newer leader, expect to place more (unless they tend to sew up the route also).

Once you have that base, you'll be able to figure it out on your own.

Limestone trad rack?

-harness
-shoes
-chalk bag
-crash pad ( x4 preferably), or large mattress
-coffin (just in case...you will inevitably need it if you get really into limestone trad climbing)
-expletives

I wouldn't bother with a rope, trad gear, or partner, because they're not going to do you much good.

It is very difficult to climb limestone using natural protection - thus the bolts you usually find on limestone crags. The rock type simply doesn't lend itself to safely using cams and nuts very often.

I climbed a lot on the escarpment when doing my grad work at Waterloo. There isn't really anything you need super specific, single set of cams, nuts, we used tricams a fair bit - the climbs are pretty short. As I recall, you will want lots of long runners.

Oh yeah, and a good mentor if you're new to climbing on gear. The protection is pretty sparse and there are lots of ledges. The nice thing is it's super easy to set up top ropes - take many meters of cordage to sling trees (NOT the cedars!) although I've heard there are some bolted anchors now - there were no bolts when we climbed there.

Have fun! The climbing is really pretty good, we had a lot of fun at those crags.

Edek,

Unlike many here, I have actually climbed trad in the areas you're talking about. Sadly, the Monument was wet when I visited and never got on it. That's one of the lingering regrets from my trip. I digress.

Cams, all of them, have a tendency to pull out. Stoppers in bottlenecks are your best bet. All routes aren't totally doable with just stoppers.

In the world of cams in slick rock or bad rock there are really two schools of thought. The first is to have a lower expansion angle. I know this sounds counter intuitive but trust me and trust the math, a lower expansion angle actually exerts greater force on the rock while sacrificing range. Unless something has changed, Metolius is the best for this.

The other school of thought is soft metal to really bite (or get bitten) into the rock. The idea is for the metal to deform into better holding positions. This has a negative effect on durability if you fall a lot. Here is where this gets tricky, the CCH were supposed to be T6-6061 but never actually were hardened properly and they ended up way softer. This turned out to be a huge bonus. If I went back to Ontario, my pre 2002 Aliens would be my go to pieces.

Trouble is, CCH isn't around anymore. Totem makes great aliens but I have no idea how hard their lobes are. I'd be inclined to guess that they're harder than the old CCH ones. Fixe is also making aliens but they've got poor quality control and assholes run the company. I'd steer clear.

It's starting to sound like Metolius or nothing and that sucks.

Here is another idea. Get a rack for good trad climbing when you travel. Enjoy good rock in the Daks and Gunks. A set of Camalots would be fine there. Clip bolts on the Ontario limestone, especially while learning. You'll have a lot more fun and you'll be way safer.

Hi Edek,

I climbed at Mount Nemo today, actually.

I carry a single rack of cams to #4 Camalot, a single set of regular BD stoppers, and offset stoppers in the middle sizes.

I know a lot of folks like tri-cams. I have the red, pink, and brown but don't carry them much anymore.

YMMV. Good luck!

Tricams are the only thing I would trust on limestone. Besides bolts, obviously.

Another Escarpment climber here.

• Full set of nuts, full set of DMM offsets every time.
• BD 0.3-3 is good enough for most routes as cams go, often to #2 is fine. There are certainly routes that need bigger gear. A #4 is nice, and 5 and 6 are really only necessary for a handful of good routes at each crag.
• Tricams. I bought a set of Evos, racked them up a few times and never used them, then brought them back into action late last season. Now I won't leave the ground without them. Learn how to place them in a manner that won't make cleaning them a nightmare (not too tight, not too deep) and your partners won't hate you.
• Hexes. Yeah, whatever, I like having 2-3 to save the similarly sized cam for later.

Regarding the tendency for cams to slip in Ontario limestone, yeah, I've heard of even statically-loaded cams suddenly slipping. I've never seen it. I suspect that in the cases where they glide out, the placement was in a less featured parallel crack. I made a concerted effort every time to place in 'dips' within cracks and inward flares so that straight outwards pressure is a lesser part of the 'will it hold' equation. I've weighted many cams without incident, though I basically never fall on them (anywhere, not just Ontario). Blind active placements are a bad idea here.

I had a solidly placed 0.75 slowly pull itself out on me while I was on direct to it. Was teaching a buddy to rappel from the masterpoint and took myself off of it to give him room...luckily I was on a big ledge and had a hand on the lip or else I would've been toast. Learned two things that day:

1) Never trust your life in just 1 piece, and
2) Don't climb trad on limestone.

The rock is just too soft...shears right out. Tricams and nuts can get solid feeling placements, but even then I would never whip on them, because the chances are pretty good you'll just break the rock. Drill bolts, enjoy safely climbing sport on limestone, and leave trad up to granite and (some) sandstone. That being said, some people still do it (in the UK mostly), and I have to hand it to them, because they're freaking nuts:

youtu.be/nqr5_F52kHQ

Note that it is, characteristically, X-rated.

Edek Falkowski wrote:Hi! So I have a full sport rack (12 draws) and I also have 4 alpine draws, as well as 4-5 other locking biners outside of my ATC and PAS biners. I'd like to start building up a trad rack, but I'm curious as to what would be the best way to start for a college student who normally climbs on Ontario Limestone, namely at Mt. Nemo, Rattlesnake Point, and Buffalo Crag. (Being a college student I need to be as frugal as possible). I also go to the Adirondacks from time to time. What would MP recommend for a sport climber trying to get into trad? Thank you!

climbing friend,

- hulking guns; sculpted abs; people to look at you who you can be impressing; the thick, stiff and hairy neck meat; and boldness of luke skywalker when he is facing off his father with light stick duel.

Good advice here, also you might take a look for similar threads on ontarioclimbing.com . Lots of escarpment climbers there.

climbing friend,

don't forget your pair of massive, low dangling nuts

climbing friend,

Haha! Gotta start somewhere...just not on limestone.

Ted Pinson wrote:Haha! Gotta start somewhere...just not on limestone.

I started on limestone ¯\_(ツ)_/¯