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New to Aid: Adjustable Daisies versus PAS + Quickdraw? Gear?

Original Post
Jen Wiebracht · · Golden, CO · Joined Jul 2015 · Points: 76

I am very new to aid climbing.
I have taken two courses to date and I have a few questions about PAS's/daisies.

First off, Fifi hooks were impossible for me, it constantly slipped out and was very difficult to release.

The first course I took, the instructor was a big proponent of adjustable daisies (versus traditional daisies with a fifi hook). I found them easy to cinch up but difficult to release.

The second course I took, the instructor used a PAS with a quickdraw on the belay loop which served the same general purpose as a fifi hook. This was much easier to release but didn't get me as close to the pieces as the adjustable daisies.

What are your guys' thoughts? What has worked best for you in terms of cinching up at a piece and release when it's time to move to the next piece? Safety? Other factors I'm not considering?

Also to tack on, how do you guys feel about the BD Index ascenders? Yates Big Wall ladders? I'm trying to scrape some gear together.

Macks Whineturd · · Squaw · Joined May 2016 · Points: 0

I'm not a very accomplished aid climber, and definitely not using the most efficient techniques but I've thrashed my way up a couple walls.

I just have two daisies girth hitched to my tie in point and a quickdraw in the belay loop. Quick draw on belay loop definitely doesn't get you very close to the gear, but it seems good for when you want to get high in the aiders. On overhanging pitches just a biner on the belay loop.

I've just got BD's webbing aiders, with stiff steps. Maybe ladders would be better or easier, but whatever.

Theres lotsa ways to haul yer ass up there, whatever one you choose just make sure you can keep it from turning into a twisted tangled mess.

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346

The PAS is an adjustable anchor and personal tether, not an aid climbing daisy. If you're going to use a daisy, get a real daisy designed for aid. Some people do use a carabiner in place of a fifi hook, it's rare and unnecessary. You're probably just having problems with the fifi because you're new. I was far from a wizard with it when I started.

I use the adjustables and they are a life saver. They are much easier to use and far quicker. You're having problems releasing them because you're probably using an option that is not releasable. Use the Yates adjustables. They can be released under load. I dont know anything about the Index ascenders other than there is an active recall on them. You dont need the Big Walls for a beginner wall. Those are best suited for really hard aid climbs where you're pretty much only aid climbing for the majority of the route and you're on a pitch for a long time. Consider the Speed Walls instead.

David Coley · · UK · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 70

I don't think there is a single answer for this as it depends on the route: how steep / how hard

and on you: how experienced / how coordinated / how brave / how tall

The latter is important as the steps on an aid ladder are fixed. So, one person might (for example) stand in the nth step and their waist is 6inches below the top of the aider. When they stand up to the n-1th step they will gain 6 inches of hight (if the steps are 6 inches apart) putting their waist at the top of the ladder. This means that any correction that just allowed them to clip in from the lower step will be way too loose once they have moved up.

However if their legs had been 3inches longer they could have clipped in with 3inch draw on nth and then been 3inches above and tight on n-1.

I suggest you play with everything you can (start down the climbing gym) and expect your systems to evolve with time.

Back to the question. I'm weak. I find adjustables good on the steep stuff and when I'm scared (i.e. soloing), two daisies a draw and a krab on my belay loop good for easy. A fifi good in restricted corners / chimneys as hard to un clip draw. Although Chris Mac recommends often going daisy-less on C1/2, I don't have the balls. I also note from supertopo that someone recently seems to have fallen out of their ladders on Lurking Fear whilst going daisy-less, and while back cleaning. Which must have hurt.

The smoothest "adjustable" daisy I've used is a length of 8mm cord and a micro trax. You need to work on getting good at releasing the trax. And best to jack in the lower one in so you can't shock load the cord on the lower piece if the top one blows (think teeth).

Matt Kuehl · · Las Vegas · Joined Nov 2010 · Points: 1,712

There are many tricks and different methods in aid climbing that some people prefer over other methods. This decision to switch methods is usually based on experience and the observed limitations of certain systems.

My recommendation would be to learn the the tradition, 2 daisy, 2 aiders, 1 Fifi technique and get it as dialed in as possible. Practice will make this method quite quick and it has no frills to distract. This will become your standard, and from here you'll more easily be able to adapt the system for more efficiency as you feel needed.

Chris McNamara's book "How to Bigwall Climb" would be a very helpful resource for establishing fundamental skills too.

Jen Wiebracht · · Golden, CO · Joined Jul 2015 · Points: 76

Thank you for the responses everyone!

MacksWhineturd: Thank you for the insight! I'm glad to hear there are folks that use biners instead of fifi hooks.

20 kN: My understanding is they serve the same general purpose. I've heard various arguments for the safety of a PAS over a daisy - which made me wonder if that argument stands true for aiding. I was using a releasable daisy that had a black pull-point - the Metolius 'Easy Daisy'. The active recall was for the NForce BD ascenders - unless they are the same product rebranded? Okay, if there a big difference in comfort between the Big Walls and the Speed Walls? I'm really looking to only buy once.

David Coley: Oh gosh, that sounds terrifying to go daisy-less! Huh! Sounds like quite the interesting set up, I hadn't thought to come up with a different system for a releasable daisy like that.

Matt Kuehl: I appreciate the advice, thank you! Definitely have heard a lot about Chris McNamara's book. Seems like the Bible of aid climbing.

Owen Witesman · · Springville, UT · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 111

I don't understand why it would be scary not to have a daisy. A pain if you need to rest or you drop your aider, but it actually makes falls safer, doesn't it, since you can't fall onto the daisy if you screw up? What am I missing?

Macks Whineturd · · Squaw · Joined May 2016 · Points: 0

I like to be connected to the gear in case it blows. I dont clip every piece with the rope if walking cam hooks up or backcleaning or whatever.

Edit: My first time on washington column I had a daisy and a PAS. The PAS side sucked for a few reasons: The pas I had was shorter than my reach so I had to tie another piece of webbing on there. Also the loops on the pas were larger than the loops on a daisy making it tougher to get everything at exactly the right height for jumaring. PAS was a pain in the ass so I got another daisy for fifteen bucks.

kevin graves · · Mammoth Lakes, CA · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 5

My first wall was with the Metolius fast daisy chains and 4 regular aiders. A constant clusterfeck having to unwind wrapped aiders from the metolius fast daisies. Always had trouble getting the Metolius fast daisies to release. I remember my more experienced partner constantly yelling, "what kind of buffoonery are you up to now?"

Some of the best aid climbers (Ammon Mcneely & Chris Macnamara) go with the classic setup of 2 daisy chains (definitely wouldn't use a pas; too long), 2 Yates aiders and a fifi hook. I went to this basic system and found it so much less complicated and much faster. I do bundle up a shorter 4 step aider on the back of my harness in case I get in to something complicated. The trick is to climb up the same ladder with both feet. I have a second fifi with a longer cord so I sometimes use 2 fifi's.

I've had 2 partners who swore by the Yates speed daisies. I'd recommend the basic setup and if you can't live with that; you might try the Yates speed daisies. Good luck !

Andrew Gram · · Salt Lake City, UT · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 3,725

The Metolius adjustable daisies are garbage. The only argument for them was that they weren't a buckle style like the Yates, which will start slipping after a few years. The new Petzl Evolv Adjust is totally superior in every way to the Metolius, and is much easier, though not quite as easy as the Yates, to release under load. I've switched to these and wouldn't go back to using the Yates buckle style again. They don't cinch up super short though so you'll still want a fifi.

If you are having trouble with a fifi slipping, you are doing something wrong - it shouldn't do that under tension.

Andrew Gram · · Salt Lake City, UT · Joined Jan 2001 · Points: 3,725

I don't think price should be a barrier - the Petzl unit will long outlive the Yates daisies. Even if it didn't, never having to untwist the daisy is worth the price difference alone, and the additional strength and added dynamic capabilities are great too.

Stagg54 Taggart · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2006 · Points: 10

from a mediocre aid climber:

The metolius adjustables suck. The buckles are hard to release and they are only rated to like 300 lbs. Yates adjustables work well.

I use 2 Yates adjustables and a fifi. I try very hard not to adjust the daisies very much while leading. Mostly use them just to prevent dropped gear. Usually I place the piece and the immediately walk as high as I can in the aiders and fifi into the piece. Seems to work well. On overhanging stuff when I'm tired sometimes I end up adjusting the daisies as I go as it's sometimes too strenuous to immediately get high enough to fifi in.

Also like them for jumaring as I can fine tune the length on the fly.

batguano · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Oct 2013 · Points: 135

If you're having trouble releasing your fifi hook, you should tie a little pull cord through the small hole in the top of the hook. Something like 4mm cord, about 4", keep it short. It's like an eject button for your fifi.

Stagg54 Taggart · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Dec 2006 · Points: 10
batguano wrote:If you're having trouble releasing your fifi hook, you should tie a little pull cord through the small hole in the top of the hook. Something like 4mm cord, about 4", keep it short. It's like an eject button for your fifi.
^^^definitely do this^^^.
Mark Hudon · · Lives on the road · Joined Jul 2009 · Points: 420

I typically don't use daisies when aid climbing. Back in my day, a "daisy chain" was three or four biners connected to your harness that you used only when the going was very awkward or overhanging or when top stepping. Back then, to hold ourselves into the rock, we used what was called a rest step where one foot is in a higher step than the other one and then tucked under your butt. You sit on your foot and are held into the to rock comfortably and at a nice height.
I have Metolius daisies that I use when jugging or moving around the anchor. I use an adjustable hook, an Alfrifi for all other situations.
Having said that, Cheyne Lempe, as fast an aid climber as anyone alive, uses ladders with a Metilius adjustable daisy permanently attached to each one. He never rest steps and doesn't use a Fifi of any kind.

jc5462 · · Hereford, Arizona · Joined Dec 2007 · Points: 0

I use and teach traditional, Adjustable etriers and Russian. If you can manage to get a hold of or make Russian set up go for it.

I use 2 fifis (different lengths)and biner on belay loop. One fifi is hitched around leg loops and waist belt and made as close as possible. I prefer the adjustable daisys regardless of etriers system. Practice and dial in the trad system. Start on a climbing wall or if needed instal bolt hangers in your garage...... Practice practice practice until it is muscle memory. The key is to get comfortable and learn to manage the gear. If you know the pro is good you can concentrate on getting comfortable with more bold movement and getting proficient top stepping. Then pick up some hooks and go aid bouldering on some choss pile as to not piss off other climbers. As you progress then start pushing things while using a fixed top belay. This is what I would do when I wanted to climb but had no partner available.

20 kN · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2009 · Points: 1,346

20 kN: My understanding is they serve the same general purpose. I've heard various arguments for the safety of a PAS over a daisy - which made me wonder if that argument stands true for aiding.

Well, they could serve the same purpose, but you have less than 1/2 the number of pockets on the PAS. Also, the PAS is much shorter, which will greatly limit the maximum distance between pieces (which means you go slower and place more gear). Less pockets means less resolution for top stepping. When you're really stopping at your limit, you need the theater to be just the right length. If it's too short you wont be able to fully top step, if it is too long you'll fall over and get jacked up. I am not sure there is really any safety advance to the PAS. Both options are rated to 22kN. If you take a static fall on a dyneema PAS, it's going to be really bad. If you take a static fall on a pocketed nylon daisy, you'll be much better off.


Okay, if there a big difference in comfort between the Big Walls and the Speed Walls? I'm really looking to only buy once.


Maybe if you're leading A4 and you're in the aiders all day. If you're in the aiders long enough that your feet are hurtingon C2, you're probably going waaay too slow. I use a crappier version of the SpeedWalls and I've never had a problem with my feet getting tired except for the first few times I tried leading aid.

Skot Richards · · Lakewood · Joined Feb 2012 · Points: 100

I use two sets of yates aiders with metolious easy daisies extended out as leashes, Im terrified of dropping a set of aiders. I don't tighten the daisies unless I'm cleaning/ jugging, I love the adjustability of them for getting the perfect jug height no matter the angle of the dangle..

For my fifi I use a adjustable fifi known as the Allfrifi, it works amazing. theres no need to fumble or fight to release and unhook the fifi, since the fifi is welded to the buckle theres no need for a lil pull string to get the fifi out of the piece your in to. Just push the lever and move the buckle, any movement of the buckle translated to the same movement go the hook... Its smooth and fast...

Allfrifi

caribouman1052 · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Nov 2012 · Points: 5

ditch the PAS as a daisy; regular daisies have lot more pockets, a lot smaller increment to help you fine tune reach, and you can get them in nylon. Every PAS I've seen is dyneema, with no dynamic spring to it at all. I use daisies, as "keepers" in case I drop my aiders. I honestly could use a piece of webbing instead. My actual daisy is 6mm cord and a Kong "adjustable" fifi. Not perfect, and one more piece of gear than I'd like, but I am an "aider dropper", regular daisies are a pain, and the Kong is pretty low tech and reliable. Any fifi will unhook if isn't weighted - if you lean back and weight the hook, you can move up while it's weighted.. but it's a lot easier to move up, and then just hook in again. About the only time I'm weighting my daisy is if I'm high enough to place the next piece - then I hook in to the previous one, and lean back. Also, if your hook is releasing too easily, try a hook with a deeper basket, maybe a an old Pika Aardvark, or the slotted Petzl. For daisies, the new Petzl or Big Wall Kate's 2-Cinch system might the best, since they use cord instead of webbing.

Mydans · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 70

There are obviously a lot of ways to do it and it really does depend on the route your doing. On a route like the nose or salute that aren't consistently overhanging and have a fair bit of free climbing light is the way to go. 2 aiders total and pocketed daisies are the way. One thing I've seen is that a lot of noobs use the Fifi to hook into the piece but most of the experts I've seen use the Fifi in the pockets of the daisy which seems faster and much more adjustable. On steeper routes that are more aid intensive like zodiac or Mescalito I used 2 yates adjustable daisies and 4 aiders. While this is slower it definitely helps on steep and awkward terrain. Im my opinion a PAS isn't really the right tool for aid climbing so I wouldn't use that at all.

hope that helps

Ryan Hamilton · · Orem · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 5

I love adjustable daisies. Currently using the Petzl Evolv Adjust, which are awesome. But, I also liked the Metolius Easy Daisy that I used to use. I never use a Fifi. I don't usually keep my ladders connected to my daisy. If the climbing is easy I bonce test then move up. I holding onto the ladder until I'm almost waist high at which point I clip the rope, so that if the piece blows my ladder and the pro are both connected to the rope. If I'm on traversing terrain where I'm back cleaning I keep my daisy on the ladder so I don't lose them. If the terrain gets tricky or overhanging then I use the daisy as others use a fifi and clip to the spine on my ladder biner so that as I high step the biner slides up the spine and I'm kept in balance for a high reach.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Big Wall and Aid Climbing
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