Is using a grigri for PAS safe?

Fair enough guys.

Yes I am safety paranoid but 15yrs in mining does that to you. Everyone has different risk tolerances. Given I've taken up this sport at 45 I'd say I'm doing better than most couch potatoes.

Perceived vs actual risk is a good way to look at it. At the moment I'm managing the perceived risk by taking extra precautions which is no doubt pissing off most of you. Sorry about that.

No doubt, as I get comfortable the perceived risks aren't real I will adjust accordingly but for now, being overly cautious enables me to climb.

Closed loop is a good idea so going with that.

Whether I need 2 adjustable tethers is a good question. It does make getting a comfortable safe stance that's centered between the 2 anchor bolts faster and easier.

Shane1234 wrote: At the moment I'm managing the perceived risk by taking extra precautions which is no doubt pissing off most of you. Sorry about that.

Are you really that dense? First of all, no one is pissed off, they are frustrated with your lack of rational thinking.

Second of all, the frustration has nothing to do with you taking 'precautions' to manage an imaginary risk . Its that your 'precautions' are creating undue potential risks, while doing nothing to mitigate real risks.

Shane1234 wrote:Whether I need 2 adjustable tethers is a good question. It does make getting a comfortable safe stance that's centered between the 2 anchor bolts faster and easier.

But again, there is absolutely no reason that you need to be centered between the 2 anchor bolts to be comfortable and safe.

jason.cre wrote: Its that your 'precautions' are creating undue potential risks, while doing nothing to mitigate real risks.

+1

kennoyce wrote: But again, there is absolutely no reason that you need to be centered between the 2 anchor bolts to be comfortable and safe.

You know, you're probably right. Might be just a preconceived notion I have. Makes equalisation easier or don't you guys bother about that for PAS's

Shane1234 wrote: don't you guys bother about that for PAS's

No, there is no reason to worry about equalization. You are on two bolts, each of which can hold around 30 times the amount of weight you put on them while cleaning the anchors. It's nice to have a second bolt for peace of mind, but in reality completely unnecessary, especially if you don't go off belay while cleaning since you are backed up by the gear below you.

Shane1234 wrote: You know, you're probably right. Might be just a preconceived notion I have. Makes equalisation easier or don't you guys bother about that for PAS's

You don't need two adjustable tethers to be centered/equalized.

However, it's not important. If you don't think the gear can hold body weight, then you shouldn't be climbing on it, period. If you don't trust it to hang from, why would you belay, tr, or lower from it?

And +1, the steps you're wanting to take as precautions are actually introducing more risk than the accepted methods.

Shane1234 wrote:Perceived vs actual risk is a good way to look at it. At the moment I'm managing the perceived risk by taking extra precautions which is no doubt pissing off most of you. Sorry about that.

Stay mindfull of this. This affects a majority of climbers.

Shane1234 wrote: You know, you're probably right. Might be just a preconceived notion I have. Makes equalisation easier or don't you guys bother about that for PAS's

Equalisation for your personal tether isn't rarely import with self placed protection let alone bolts. Sure use a second attachment to make yourself feel safe, but in general don't worry about equalisation.

patto wrote: ... Equalisation for your personal tether isn't rarely import(ant) ...

Really???

What about ERNEST, ie Equalised, Redundant, Non extending, Secure, Timely?

I realise you don't always need all five but it's preferable right?

Or does this reflect my still evolving trust of glued in bolts? They really are bomber and I'm only leaning against it so I only need one?

Shane1234 wrote: Really??? What about ERNEST, ie Equalised, Redundant, Non extending, Secure, Timely? I realise you don't always need all five but it's preferable right? Or does this reflect my still evolving trust of glued in bolts? They really are bomber and I'm only leaning against it so I only need one?

You're confusing setting an anchor with cleaning one. When setting an anchor for belay, or TR, you should follow ERNEST or SRENE. This is because it needs to hold a fall. If you're lowering from a set anchor you just clip the rope through the master point. You never come off belay and don't need a tether. If belaying you clove or tie a figure 8 on a bight to the master point.

For cleaning a bolted anchor, if you don't already trust the bolts with body weight you shouldn't be climbing on them to begin with.

Like I've said twice now. Clip a sling or draw to one bolt, and use your purcel prussic to clip the other. You'll be equalized, or close enough, and into the anchor quicker than any other method you've yet proposed. And perfectly safe.

Have we covered it ?

Brian L. wrote: You're confusing setting an anchor with cleaning one. When setting an anchor for belay, or TR, you should follow ERNEST or SRENE. This is because it needs to hold a fall. If you're lowering from a set anchor you just clip the rope through the master point. You never come off belay and don't need a tether. If belaying you clove or tie a figure 8 on a bight to the master point. For cleaning a bolted anchor, if you don't already trust the bolts with body weight you shouldn't be climbing on them to begin with. Like I've said twice now. Clip a sling or draw to one bolt, and use your purcel prussic to clip the other. You'll be equalized, or close enough, and into the anchor quicker than any other method you've yet proposed. And perfectly safe.

Ok, ok, I've thrown all my ideas out the window (yes I can hear the sign of relief from here). I'm going with the purcell on one bolt and either a sling or clove hitch main rope on the other. After spending a couple of hours on my wall just mucking about with slings and cloves I'm getting faster, especially with judging which sling length to use, ie full length, halved or thirds/alpine draw.

The only issue is when a bight of rope doesn't fit though the anchor rings.

With a sling, I'm assuming you just untie yourself, feed the end through and tie back in and descend. In the process you come off belay correct?

Clove hitch seems more complicated. Currently I clip a biner to anchor and clove hitch it and weight it. Then I gather ~ 6ft slack, figure 8 to belay loop, clove it to a second biner and transfer my weight to this. This allows me to untie my original tie in and the 1st clove hitch, feed it through the anchors, tie back in, untie figure 8 and 2nd clove, and descend. Is there an easier way or should I just use slings whenever I come across small eye bolts?

When you're cleaning anchors at the top of a sport pitch your main objective is speed, provided you aren't sacrificing safety in order to obtain speed. Here's how I do it, which is pretty fast and doesn't really sacrifice anything safety-wise:

1 Clip my tether (which stays on my harness at all times) to 1 bolt
2 Either clip a sling to the other bolt or chain together a few draws and clip it to the other bolt
3 pull up a foot or two of slack and clove it to something (either the anchor or me) so I can't drop the rope after untying
4 Untie and feed the end through the chains/rings/links
5 Clove the rope I just fed through to a locker clipped to my belay loop. This clove could also be substitued with a figure 8 on a bight or alpine butterfly if you aren't very comfortable with the clove hitch, but I prefer a clove because it's faster and easier tie and untie.
6 Undo the clove from step 3 and call "take" to my belayer
7 Once my belayer has communicated that (s)he has me I unclip my tether and sling/draws and lower off.

The whole thing takes like 30sec to 1min which is probably a min or two less than what your fuster cluck would take. If you're fine with taking that extra time, that's fine, but if you would like to speed up the process then keep it simple

Eli described the process well. My only issue is a clove as a main tie in, so I recommend going back in by clipping a figure 8 on a bight - it's just as quick.

As mentioned previously there are ways to do it without coming off belay (being tied back in before untiring your main knot).

A key point is this: if you are lowering NEVER call "off belay" to your belayer. They can sit there and hold the rope, even if it isn't connected to you. Just call "slack" and "take" as need. This avoids potential communication issues.

Also, your process for cleaning while tying in with the rope works, but is complicated, and takes more time tying and untying a bunch of knots. I think you might still be confusing setting an anchor with cleaning. The "use the rope" mantra is more when you're belaying off an anchor. Using separate tethers really simplifies the process.

I think it's best to use same process all the time so your process is consistent. Have a process that works for any situation (in terms of bolted anchor configurations). In the manufacturing world we call this a "Standardized Work Process". When you follow a consistent process, doing it the same way every time, you're less likely to make a mistake.

ok, so I'll just use Eli's process is which is what I do anyway when the anchors are level. I'm getting better at judging sling lengths for uneven anchors so that helps. I do prefer to tie back in using a follow through figure of 8 but will change that to a figure 8 clipped into my belay loop, faster and safe enough.

I'm still confused about cloving using the main line. There were a few people who suggested it so I'm assuming they are referring to cleaning up sports anchors. So is there an easier/safer way than what I proposed? As you say, there is a lot of tying and untying which can lead to mistakes so I'm starting to think slings/draws are safer even though you are not attached to the main rope all the time.

rgold wrote: No matter what the local conventions, rappelling is never wrong.

Well, there's an exception to this. If you're talking sport climbing, consider this scenario: You're with climbers that aren't as strong. You throw a burn on your project which is about 48 degrees overhanging and you make it to the anchors. No one can follow it. A plumb line from the anchors to the ground puts you about 45 feet away from the base of the route. How do you clean the route on rappel?

So, it's never wrong per se, unless leaving your gear is wrong.

And I'd like to say a big "thanks" to all the gear companies, gyms, and dirtbag pros who really want to start getting paid big $ for "growing the sport" because 6 goddamned pages is really just the tip of the iceberg of what is necessary to explain cleaning a fucking sport route when you try to net everyone in the general public and turn them into climbers. Yayyyy!!!! Let's "grow the sport"!!!!

don'tchuffonme: That quote was in regard to local ethic's. Meaning, if the local ethic is to lower, no one will really complain if you rap. The opposite isn't true. Of course there are times where the situation means it's more appropriate to lower, as you aptly described.

Shane1234 wrote:I do prefer to tie back in using a follow through figure of 8 but will change that to a figure 8 clipped into my belay loop, faster and safe enough.

Either way is fine. Do what you're comfortable with.

Shane1234 wrote:I'm still confused about cloving using the main line. There were a few people who suggested it so I'm assuming they are referring to cleaning up sports anchors. So is there an easier/safer way than what I proposed? As you say, there is a lot of tying and untying which can lead to mistakes so I'm starting to think slings/draws are safer even though you are not attached to the main rope all the time.

IF you use the rope, it's usually only one tether connection in the case of cleaning. You already described a method using it as both connections, and you can see the cluster that creates. As being discussed in this thread the two considerations I saw were: 1) not being clear about the situation, so making a general comment about protecting yourself with the rope (like multi-pitch belay situation). 2) Using it as a single tether (this was also in conjunction with using your original grigri idea, so that you're backed up. again, i don't think the situation was clear at that point in the thread).

IF you use the rope as one of your tethers, it mostly only works if you can pass a bight through the rings. There are ways around it, but it's more complicated and time consuming. The process goes like this:

1) Attach first tether.
2) Call for some slack
3) Clove the rope to 2nd bolt.
4) Call for lots of slack
5) Pass a bight through the rings.
6) Tie figure 8 on the bight and clip in with a locker
7) Clean the anchor
8) Call take, hang on your belayer.
9) Untie original tie in knot, and clove. Pass tail through the rings
10) Unhook your other tether and lower.

It can be modified slightly for rappel, but it's really best to use two tethers if you're rappelling.

Shane1234 wrote: I'm still confused about cloving using the main line. There were a few people who suggested it so I'm assuming they are referring to cleaning up sports anchors. So is there an easier/safer way than what I proposed? As you say, there is a lot of tying and untying which can lead to mistakes so I'm starting to think slings/draws are safer even though you are not attached to the main rope all the time.

They mean you hang a draw onto a bolt or your harness and clove the main line into it, this is to prevent you dropping the rope completely while you are threading the bolts.

Jim Titt wrote: They mean you hang a draw onto a bolt or your harness and clove the main line into it, this is to prevent you dropping the rope completely while you are threading the bolts.

Mr Titt, Sir, Never Mind this farce!
What sort of forces need to be generated to cause rope ' switch ' in a Grigri used for top rope self belay ?
Shock loading from a drop ?

This method has worked for me for many years.
But now I'm warned, rgold, mentioned you & your research into Grigri failure.

the few leaning or traveling lines I do demand some slack be in
the system while climbing between stances/ hangs where I catch up the slack
& add back up knots.

Michael Schneider wrote: Mr Titt, Sir, Never Mind this farce! What sort of forces need to be generated to cause rope ' switch ' in a Grigri used for top rope self belay ? Shock loading from a drop ? This method has worked for me for many years. But now I'm warned, rgold, mentioned you & your research into Grigri failure. the few leaning or traveling lines I do demand some slack be in the system while climbing between stances/ hangs where I catch up the slack & add back up knots.

The switch is a failure mode with a plate like device using a single strand in guide mode.

With enough force the upper strand can squeeze under the lower strand.

When using doubles a total failure won't happen but the stands can squeeze past each other causing the ropes to lock up solid. The rope won't move one way or the other. Not catastrophic but a real pita.