Trouble lowering your second in guide mode? DMM pivot review

DMM Pivot belay device review

Nice review, I like the diagram explaining how the pivot's key feature helps its function.

I've been using a Pivot for almost a year now. I don't think it's as easy to lower with as my GriGri 2, but it's definitely easier than my ATC-guide. (I lowered 2 climbers a whole pitch to test it.)

I tell people who ask that I find it nicer than the ATC and the Reverso in all criteria (lowering, smoothness, rappelling, guide mode setup), but not enough to toss your old device prematurely.

Well done Mike, thanks for posting.

Thanks! I lost my grigri at the gym and have since been using an ATC exclusively. I generally didn't take my grigri on multipitch climbs anyways though.

Is the grigri set up to belay a second hands-free? I've preferred the ATC in plaquette mode because I know for certain that it can catch a fall without my hand being on the brake.

Mike Minson wrote: Is the grigri set up to belay a second hands-free?

Yup, set it up the same way and attach it to your masterpoint instead of your belay loop.

Nice, what did you use to set up your website

I wish all reviews could be that terse and to the point. Nice work!

Mike Minson wrote:Thanks! I lost my grigri at the gym and have since been using an ATC exclusively. I generally didn't take my grigri on multipitch climbs anyways though. Is the grigri set up to belay a second hands-free? I've preferred the ATC in plaquette mode because I know for certain that it can catch a fall without my hand being on the brake.

The grigri is not set up to hands free belay anyone under any circuumstance ever, it is an assisted braking device, not to be confused with an "auto blocking device".
Will it catch the fall of a second when attached to your masterpoint without your hand on the rope? Probably.
Was it made for it/is it 100% safe? No.

Very well put together review. Have only lowered, or been lowered, on it a handful of times, either just to see what it was like, or ironically, at the Bridge Area in Fremont, because it's the easiest option for keeping a dry rope. It's amazing how smooth it lowers. I found that for some situations one doesn't even need to run a sling with redirect to lower, can just manipulate it by simply lifting up slightly on the correct end of the device.

One of my ice partners was a little concerned how well it would work with the skinny ropes we use on ice, but it handles the 7.8 mm doubles just fine.

NorCalNomad wrote:attach it to your masterpoint

Of Course, But it's only hands free when the device is fully locked. As soon as the device is unweighted then the rope runs freely.

Benj84 wrote: Will it catch the fall of a second when attached to your masterpoint without your hand on the rope? Probably. Was it made for it/is it 100% safe? No.

I think it would also be unwise to advocate that auto-blocking devices be used as hands free devices. It's good to always keep your hands on the brake, but I definitely need a free hand to manage the rope and to snap pictures...

Thanks for reading the review.
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I was so stoked on the Pivot I wanted it to be the first product reviewed. It really is an improvement in every category over the ATC guide and the Petzl Reverso. It was very easy to lower my follower a whole pitch applying gentle pressure.

Mike Minson wrote: Of Course, But it's only hands free when the device is fully locked. As soon as the device is unweighted then the rope runs freely.

Yeah just like your atc guide...

FFS people, yeah legalese says no it's not an autolocking device. 99% of reality it is, even for self belaying. Just really sucks for the 1%

Wonder what the day will be like when someone in court wins with, "the internet told me to do it" argument.

No. Not at all like your ATC Guide. The Grigri is not a hands free autoblocking device, and treating it the same as an ATC guide will get somebody killed, especially if you use a thinner rope. Petzl explicitly does NOT recommend using a Grigri for a direct belay and recommends instead a redirect belay. The Grigri is designed to lock under a dynamic load (leader fall) and in the break position; hanging a Grigri upside down does not achieve this, and if you let go of the break hand, it is very possible for the rope to creep. Basically, if you have a rope that feeds well for leading, it's not going to be safe for belaying a second.

Anyways, saw one of these on sale from Backcountry with the carabiner for $30 and decided to go for it...love the thing. Pretty incredible how well it lowers, which IMO is worth replacing your ATC Guide or Reverso.

i never understood why the dmm pivot is better at lowering than the atc guide. it pivots roughly in the same area.

Rich zz wrote:i never understood why the dmm pivot is better at lowering than the atc guide. it pivots roughly in the same area.

"Roughly" is the point. If you move the pivot point inwards toward the rope the leverage you obtain with the lowering karabiner is considerably improved. The 1/2" or so less makes a huge difference.

So, does the Pivot not require a backup to lower, or is it still needed/recommended?

Rich, the hole that you hang the device onto your masterpoint moves (pivots), opening up the device to release the load. I don't believe a redirect is needed, but that's a really good question. Anyone know?

Manual

Apparently DMM like turtles but not rabbits. Perhaps turtles taste better?

I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong (something, presumably), but I haven't found the DMM Pivot to be all that much easier for lowering than a BD ATC Guide. It still usually requires applying a fair bit of force for a decent length of time in an awkward direction (maybe 30-40lbs outward at roughly shoulder level).

After a couple times using it to lower, I decided it was just faster and easier to use the method I've always used with the ATC Guide (i.e., redirect connected to my belay loop, with a friction backup on the brake strand).

Haha...yeah, those directions are a bit cryptic, but I interpreted as ";OK to use as it's setup, just don't crank on it like a horny rabbit or else you'll end up as turtle soup."; I also love how you can tell that they're from Wales because all of the examples show twin ropes...

My one gripe is that the hole is rather size specific if you want to use a carabiner to leverage it. I could fit a Nano 22 but not a Neutrino.

michaelp wrote:I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong (something, presumably), but I haven't found the DMM Pivot to be all that much easier for lowering than a BD ATC Guide. It still usually requires applying a fair bit of force for a decent length of time in an awkward direction (maybe 30-40lbs outward at roughly shoulder level). After a couple times using it to lower, I decided it was just faster and easier to use the method I've always used with the ATC Guide (i.e., redirect connected to my belay loop, with a friction backup on the brake strand).

I´ve measured the force required to release with a load of different ropes and it is the case that with some ropes it´s not really better than anything else and with some ropes it´s a bit better. Thick ropes suck just like all the other plates. Personally I still think all the "guide" plates are rubbish for lowering so stick with something sensible instead!
Most of the problems are ergonomic, like where you try to apply the force, the best by far is the Climbing Technology Alpine Up which is already so big you can get loads of leverage, downside is it´s already huge and you need a load of karabiners as well so it all ends up weighing more than a GriGri.