Elitism on the Trail

Stagg54 wrote: Because everybody is sure to keep there MP profile up to date. That is the only way to tell if someone is a real climber is based on there send list on MP. And of course noone would ever lie about any of those either...

Well, you said "...because you don't climb as hard as them" and not "...because your mp.com ticklist indicates you don't climb as hard as them".

The point was that if an Internet expert is calling somebody else's ascent invalid because prehung draws make it easier, the Internet expert lacks the experience (gained from climbing hard enough things to know) to have a valid opinion. Slavish insistence on tricams, slavish rejection of gri-gris, the frustrating persistence of the belay-biner-on-the-tie-in-points. They all come down to the speaker lacking the relevant experience to know better.

This is very similar to somebody saying "we are lying to physics students by not teaching them relativity first thing, since it is the most correct thing." If you know relativity, you know *why* that's an asinine statement.

Maybe that is elitist, but all of these lessons are taught via mileage, not necessarily peak difficulty.

Brian Scoggins wrote: Well, you said "...because you don't climb as hard as them"

Stagg didn't say that, I did.

And I think there are some issues (prehung draws on overhanging climbs) where you need the experience to comment on them.

Carry on...

True enough. The differentiation between "climbs that hard" and "went to considerable trouble to document climbing that hard" is lost on a lot of mp'ers.

My claim is that certain opinions can only be held in the absence of contrary data, and the more and harder one climbs, the harder it is to avoid that contrary data.

That was humbling. Thanks for the good words.
I will make more of an effort now to encourage others through positive reinforcement, rather than being a downer over things that don't matter.

William Thiry wrote: you're messing with the wrong guy.

I'm shaking...

William Thiry wrote: I've got quite a bit of alpine rock experience outside of the Hulk and Diamond (there are other places to climb, you know).

You don't need to have done the Diamond, although IMO it's pretty odd to be a Colorado based alpinist and not have done it (I'm no alpinist but what else locally is comparable to it in terms of difficulty/commitment?)

But that's not my point. I'm merely pointing out that if you compare very favorably to your peers (including the snarky party OP mentioned), it'll probably do you some good to seek out new peers.

I would argue that mileage, rather than difficulty, lends itself to having more experience. I'm sure there are cases where the opposite is true. I've cruised hard (for me) routes with little consequences, yet I've also been reamed by easy routes in the mountains.

A valued mentor once told me: "There are old mountaineers, and there are bold mountaineers. But not a lot of old, bold mountaineers."

As for drinking the Kool-Aid... Yes that was his way of marketing himself, but he lived what he preached. But take a young climber wanting to climb big routes in the greater ranges and it's easier to get sucked into the masochism mentality. I enjoy suffering for sufferings sake, so I think Kiss or Kill resonated with me, not just in the climbing arena. It's more about living your life with a sense of unbridled commitment, not dabbling here or there in many different hobbies.

But the point of my post was to point out that there is healthy and unhealthy elitism. This is true in any sport. But when you diminish someone else's experience to promote yours, you've skipped over elitism and are just an asshole.

Someone earlier said it best: there's always someone that's better than you.

Reboot- supertopo.com/climbers-foru…

DavisMeschke wrote:As for drinking the Kool-Aid... Yes that was his way of marketing himself, but he lived what he preached. But take a young climber wanting to climb big routes in the greater ranges and it's easier to get sucked into the masochism mentality. I enjoy suffering for sufferings sake, so I think Kiss or Kill resonated with me, not just in the climbing arena.

I read all his books too.
Twight certainly was (is?) an accomplished alpinist.

But if the only route a person can find to a desired summit is through some tortured pit of personal despair, I kind of wonder if that person is doing something wrong with his/her life.

Anyway, I always figured he was better adjusted than his writing made it seem. Hope so, anyway.

I'm getting worried about Mr Thiry though... :-)

pooch wrote:supertopo

And? I regularly see Lynn Hill & alpinists who've done FAs in Patagonia, multiple Diamond/Hulk/El Cap routes in a day. Sorry if I'm not impressed. People on supertopo can give each other back rubs there; I don't feel compelled to extend the curtesy here.

You're a rather unhappy person aren't you?

That's sad

I see three subjects intermingling here.

1. Dickheads in the wilderness.

A rare encounter but they do exist. I don't really know the cure for the dickhead. If you are the dickhead, stop that shit. Be psyched for other people. If you detect a potential problem with their objective, helpfully point out your concern.

2. Your climbing grade and your opinion.

Hey, opinions and assholes I suppose. You've got that right. Doesn't make it correct, valid, worth listening to, or beyond mocking. Right now, in 2016, there is an honest to goodness flat Earth society that is fundraising for hot air balloons to somehow prove the earth is flat. Are they entitled to their opinion, sure. Will they ever be right? Flat earth, creationism, anti-vax, and cleaning on rappel, it's amazing the things people can believe.

3. Is William Thiry a bad-mother(shut your mouth)?

Near as I can tell he's a solid climber who really likes multi-pitch. It'd make him ideal as a partner for some long route with a long walk. You know, the Casual or Petit or Crestone Needle or something. Are his climbing chops enough that I'd reach out and invite him on a big route? Of course not, you couldn't swing a dead cat in Boulder without hitting someone equivalent. Are there campfire stories about him? Is La Sportiva asking him to design a pair of shoes? Is there a Thiry signature rope? Solid guy is well, just a guy.

For once it would be nice to hear the other side on the story in contrast to the carefully concocted message of the OP. What's the point of taking it at face value? this is the Internet.

Brian Scoggins wrote:True enough. The differentiation between "climbs that hard" and "went to considerable trouble to document climbing that hard" is lost on a lot of mp'ers. My claim is that certain opinions can only be held in the absence of contrary data, and the more and harder one climbs, the harder it is to avoid that contrary data.

I'm willing to bet that most people who climb at a high level don't waste time documenting it on MP. I flail at a mediocre level and still find it too much of a hassle to document things on MP. why bother? So I can stroke my own ego? If its a matter of keeping track of what you've done, a spreadsheet or writing it in the guidebook (yes I still use those inspite of the MP app) seems adequate. Filling out ticks on MP is a just stroking your ego.

DavisMeschke wrote:... The party heading in explains that they're from Wisconsin, and that this is the first time they've done a route this committing or large. The other party replies: "HAHAHA. You Wisconsin fucks might as well head back home cause you have no business here." They continue to brag of their "one day alpine ascent" until the other party I imagine just walks away.

just immature, that's all

My favorite phrase on this subject is:

"You didn't climb the mountain! You hiked! You're not a climber! You're a hiker!"

Stagg54 wrote: I'm willing to bet that most people who climb at a high level don't waste time documenting it on MP. I flail at a mediocre level and still find it too much of a hassle to document things on MP. why bother? So I can stroke my own ego? If its a matter of keeping track of what you've done, a spreadsheet or writing it in the guidebook (yes I still use those inspite of the MP app) seems adequate. Filling out ticks on MP is a just stroking your ego.

I think 8a fills the role of the MP spreadsheet for the elites.

I'm a pretty average climber at best, and usually keep track pf my climbs in a notebook, but have experimented recently with ticking them all on MP instead.
It's a lot easier for me to just click than it is to try to remember all the names of random routes and write them down some where else.
Haven't decided if I'll keep it up.

Writing in the guidebook is fine until the next edition of the guide comes out, and the one after that, and the one after that...

I think most folks check other's tick lists either to vet a potential partner or to (usually ineffectively) buttress some point in a forum dispute.

I don't see how putting my info out there is going to stroke my ego. As reboot pointed out upthread, "there's always somebody better than you are." In my case, countless numbers of them! My ticks just make this obvious to everyone else.

Jeepers people. Hell of a pissin contest going on I'd say. Safe to say we all have one thing in common...mountains and a passion for being surrounded by them. It's depressing to see people picking at this and that. Pointless if you ask this WI rookie "hiker" I love reading the trip reports and seeing the wonderful photos put up by everyone on this site. So to all the elitists from wherever your at and rookie punks from WI...Take a nice deep breathe and enjoy the rest of your day. Take care everyone and be safe. Whatever level your at.

Competition isn't always a bad thing. I enjoy getting together with other climbers that are around my same level and seeing who can get the assent first motivates you to keep trying when you would have given up if you were by yourself.

But at the point when you climbing better means you are putting others down for not being able to do what you do is a bad thing.

The vast majority of people I go climb with don't climb as hard as me (and I am far from a great climber) but I just enjoy climbing. At the same time I really do wish sometimes I had other stronger climbers with me. I generally don't attempt 5.11+ climbs, not because I couldn't work at them and send them, but because the people I am with won't even make an attempt, this is a problem because it is hard to stay motivated to make attempt after attempt when you are the only person there doing it.

reboot wrote: And? I regularly see Lynn Hill & alpinists who've done FAs in Patagonia, multiple Diamond/Hulk/El Cap routes in a day. Sorry if I'm not impressed. People on supertopo can give each other back rubs there; I don't feel compelled to extend the curtesy here.

Wow! Who pissed in your cheerios?

ViperScale wrote:The vast majority of people I go climb with don't climb as hard as me (and I am far from a great climber) but I just enjoy climbing. At the same time I really do wish sometimes I had other stronger climbers with me. I generally don't attempt 5.11+ climbs, not because I couldn't work at them and send them, but because the people I am with won't even make an attempt, this is a problem because it is hard to stay motivated to make attempt after attempt when you are the only person there doing it.

It's unfortunate, but unmotivated partners are kind of a downer. Good partnership let you feed on each other's motivation. Grades can be less of an issue unless logistics dictate it. IMO, you are not the asshole if you decide to seek out partners of equal psyche.

Stagg54 wrote: Wow! Who pissed in your cheerios?

I'm confused. Unimpressed by supertopo personas = I'm in a bad mood? Around here, if I'm that easily impressed, I wouldn't get any climbing done.