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Is using a grigri for PAS safe?

Andrew Wood · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jul 2015 · Points: 60

I bet using a grigri as a PAS would be awesome for french aid

Shane1234 · · Australia · Joined Jun 2016 · Points: 10

The ATC Guide instruction do not show the need for a constant brake hand when in auto-block mode like it does in normal belay mode. Regardless, I have sought clarification from Black Diamond themselves.

It will not be physically possible to fall on the device like Jim Titt as any slack developed will be taken up by the other tether, see photo below.

My proposed tether is 1m (3ft), with a stopper knot. The other tether (Purcell prusik) is a similar length. When anchors are level, slings/draws are fine.

This morning it took me 2 seconds to both clip in a pre-rigged ATC and adjust length, without rushing. Obviously much easier and faster than tying a clove hitch which I can also do one handed both with and without a biner but thanks for the video anyway. The difference is once loaded, if you didn't get the length right the first time, a clove hitch is very fiddly to adjust, especially one handed.

Standard sports anchors here are typically 2 separate eye bolts, no rap rings or chains.

Thanks David for the advice on weighting the tethers. Up to now I haven’t been fully confident about the bolts and glue so didn’t want to fully commit to them at that angle. I do weigh them so they won’t be shock loaded, but just not 100%. Thanks to this wonderful, debate, my trust in bolts and glue is much higher so next time out, I’ll take your advice and sit on them with a longer tether.

I’m proposing to use the atc at the bolt end, see photo. Not sure if that makes it better or worse though.

atc guide in auto block mode for anchoring

Brian L. · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2016 · Points: 90

Looks like a cluster to carry and set up. It doesn't really adjust that much shorter than your purcel prussic would. Your tie in knot is....interesting...

It'd be much easier, and simpler to to just use your purcel prussic for the far bolt, and a sling or QuickDraw for the close one.

Shane1234 · · Australia · Joined Jun 2016 · Points: 10

Doesn't take any time to set up as it's already pre-rigged. Just clip it in, pull to adjust and you're done.

Yes it is a bit bulky but I can live with that.

It's a scaffold knot, used for decades by tree arborists to anchor themselves. Essentially it's one half of a double/triple fishermans. Very strong, very compact and grips the carabiner solid. It looks more bulky than it is because I've tied the tail off into a overhand knot and snugged it up against the main knot.

Brian L. · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2016 · Points: 90

Interesting.

You'd get more range tieing in direct to your harness with a figure 8. I still say you're way overcomplicating this, but you won't die, and my guess is you'll figure that out on your own eventually.

I'd also girth hitch the purcel prussic to your harness instead of tieing it directly on so it's much easier to remove.

Shane1234 · · Australia · Joined Jun 2016 · Points: 10
Brian L. wrote:You'd get more range tieing in direct to your harness with a figure 8.
Thought of that but with both the climbing rope and Purcel already there I figured it's getting kinda cramped, especially when it comes to tying back in to lower. I'll give it a go and see if there is enough room.

Brian L. wrote:I'd also girth hitch the purcel prussic to your harness instead of tieing it directly on so it's much easier to remove.
Yes it is a PITA to remove but I keep it there permanently so not an issue.
Suburban Roadside · · Abovetraffic on Hudson · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 2,419

A bunch of things:
You are an expert, good on ya' for re-inventing the wheel,
The great thing about climbing is there is no wrong way to do things (?)
If your way works for you, ~ have at it.

We here in the Eastern United States, have come to a point where we see / accept standardization
of technique by promoting K. I. S. To help keep beginners, our family members,( in an exetential, extended tribe sense ) safer.
In the long run, Over-all by being able to recognize similar practices to reduce mis communication, or mis-understanding of terms , or meaning of the. Most basic of climbing routines.

Certainly the system you show works fine for you.

I agree that the use of a half fisher-mans as a tie in knot for
demonstration or in practice, has its place as a historic way to tie in,
It is used in anchoring ,-into- in industrial applications.
It Works, is safe, synches down tight, is that what you want?
I would worry that the short radius self constricting knot in conjunction
with today's skinnier dynamic lead cords, coupled with the results of
the processes of physical work, might not be optimal , l

" light is right , tied the knot to tight ~ Spent the night., & keep it simple stupid. . .

Others here in the beginners forum both don't know what they are looking at
And need to be coaxed to except anything 'new' different, from the widely adopted
Standard follow 'back' through, figure 8 tie in.

And now that the little nugget about shock loading a gri-gri could 'have the ropes switch'
( under considerable load, (whew, that is a system I use) I was only vaguely aware of that.
I Always try to get the lesson that the professor presents.

a beach · · northeast · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 426




^^Look how happy she is, using the correct tools for the job^^
jason.cre · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2014 · Points: 10

The solution to your problem is to get more comfortable with climbing. Spend more time hanging out at anchors, weighting them, trusting your protection. Getting a relatively equalized anchor (really not a huge priority for what you are doing) shouldnt take much more time whether it using purcell prusik, different length slings, clove hitch etc. etc. When you account for the time you are taking setting up your atc rig before you climb your solution probably takes longer than the other options.

Basically the solution you have come up with is clunky, overdesigned and yet not particularly safe, and doesnt really save time. And saving a few second isnt really worth it anyway for the kind of climbing you are doing. Many people have told you this yet you seem incredulous that you might be wrong.

The fact your friend uses a similar set up with a traxion makes me think you arent learning your climbing skills from a particularly adept or knowledgeable partner.

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526

I'm done with recommendations; it is clear that the OP is seeking validation, not advice.

But I'm still puzzled by one thing: if, as the OP says, the top anchors of routes have two bolts (at different levels) with no connection between them, then how are rappels arranged? Is the rap line supposed to be run through rings on each of the bolts, meaning that if the top bolt fails, the rappeler falls the distance between the two bolts? If this happens at the start of the rappel, the forces could be huge, and that second bolt isn't likely to survive.

Craig Childre · · Lubbock, TX · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 4,860

Not exactly clear what you are looking to accomplish. My default answer to most things involve a Grigri, no...it's not safe.

If you search the web, and can't find a diagram showing this specific application using the G, then it's most likely wrong.

Jim Titt · · Germany · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 490
rgold wrote: But I'm still puzzled by one thing: if, as the OP says, the top anchors of routes have two bolts (at different levels) with no connection between them, then how are rappels arranged? Is the rap line supposed to be run through rings on each of the bolts, meaning that if the top bolt fails, the rappeler falls the distance between the two bolts? If this happens at the start of the rappel, the forces could be huge, and that second bolt isn't likely to survive.
I always set the bolts up for rap stations this way, one bolt about 5" up and ca 45° across from the other (the spacing is to fit a standard inline chainset later if it´s required).
If the top bolt fails then the force on the lower one is unlikely to be more than you can hold with your rap device:-)
Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
rgold wrote:I'm done with recommendations; it is clear that the OP is seeking validation, not advice.
I agree but I'll give it one more vastly simplified go....

The OP asked: Is using a grigri for PAS safe?

No. It's not safe because there are much more simple methods that don't involve a device that can be easily released.

The OP's desire to save a few seconds at the top of one pitch sport climbs is pointless, somewhat of a red herring, and not worth the additional risk of a releasable device in the system.
Guy Keesee · · Moorpark, CA · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 349

rgold..... you can't help everyone.

Shane1234.... just keep on doing whatever you think is safe, I will know who you are though, when your the person spending a ton of time at the warm up anchors.
Best advise ever.... listen to rgold and jim titt- between them you have about 1,000 years of experienced climbers telling you what to do.

troll on

Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0

Yes it is safe. Petzl calls the setup GRILLON petzl.com/US/en/Professiona…

You can achieve the same thing with your grigri + some dynamic rope + a figure 8 to attach it to your harnes + a stopper knot at the other end.

Make sure you have the stopper knot. You don't want to lower yourself off the rope

Trad Princess · · Not That Into Climbing · Joined Jan 2012 · Points: 1,175

...and so continues another episode of...making the simple, complicated

Craig Childre · · Lubbock, TX · Joined Aug 2006 · Points: 4,860

Depends on one's definition of "Safe"... ;)

I'm sort of in the camp with Marc801... Observing the premise presented by the OP is flawed. Not that it's necessarily wrong... or dangerous... it's just unnecessary.

BigFeet · · Texas · Joined May 2014 · Points: 385
JulianG wrote:Yes it is safe. Petzl calls the setup GRILLON petzl.com/US/en/Professiona… You can achieve the same thing with your grigri + some dynamic rope + a figure 8 to attach it to your harnes + a stopper knot at the other end. Make sure you have the stopper knot. You don't want to lower yourself off the rope
Quote from the page you linked: "The GRILLON adjustable lanyard is used to make work positioning systems, to complement a fall-arrest system. Its length can be very easily and precisely adjusted as necessary for comfortable positioning at the work station. Depending on the configuration, it can be used in single or double mode."

This sure seems like a lot of work and fumbling around to get the desired effect, and it appears that Petzl assumes this to be used in conjunction with what is to be the actual fall arresting gear - not the GriGri itself. I would believe that Petzl is stating that this not be used for fall arrest, in and of itself, but just positioning.

Maybe I've lost the plot, but why climb a sport route with any extra gear not needed? I can adjust my stance and comfort with just the rope and a simple sling even on uneven anchor bolts.

I may need to reread this thread to see what the Hell we are talking about here.
BigFeet · · Texas · Joined May 2014 · Points: 385
Burcheydawwwwwwg wrote:...and so continues another episode of...making the simple, complicated
Agree.
Guy Keesee · · Moorpark, CA · Joined Mar 2008 · Points: 349
Burcheydawwwwwwg wrote:...and so continues another episode of...making the simple, complicated
So how is your life coming along???? you have made the simple into complicated, bro.

Getting good at the "2am change"?????
Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Beginning Climbers
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