leaving draws on sport routes

I'm relatively new to the sport of climbing, but what am I supposed to do if I show up to climb something and its got draws on every bolt including the anchors...

I'm not going to clip some unknown draws as protection, period. I imagine you can't clip 2 draws to most bolt hangers in my experience... nor would I choose to even if I could...

I've seen numerous threads degrade into arguments about stealing draws, but what options do you have other than removing the existing draw and replacing with your own???

dave higdon wrote:I'm relatively new to the sport of climbing, but what am I supposed to do if I show up to climb something and its got draws on every bolt including the anchors... I'm not going to clip some unknown draws as protection, period. I imagine you can't clip 2 draws to most bolt hangers in my experience... nor would I choose to even if I could... I've seen numerous threads degrade into arguments about stealing draws, but what options do you have other than removing the existing draw and replacing with your own???

Dave, here is my uninformed (ha ha) opinion:

You could clip your draw into the bolt-side carabiner of the existing draw. That way, you don't have to trust the dogbone of unknown quality.

More experienced sport climbers will weigh in, but it's a good question.

FrankPS wrote: Dave, here is my uninformed (ha ha) opinion: You could clip your draw into the bolt-side carabiner of the existing draw. That way, you don't have to trust the dogbone of unknown quality. More experienced sport climbers will weigh in, but it's a good question.

In all honesty, I wouldn't even want to do that. Sounds like a mess having 2 draws hanging off every bolt, not to mention you're adding another 'link' in your system that could fail and you know nothing of its history.

I think 99% of us look at the draw when we get to it, then clip it based off that. I've only once removed a draw and replaced it with one of my own. If you do, then either put them back up, or leave them at the bottom clipped together. Pretty much any experienced sport climber will tell you to just clip them. They should be fine, and if they aren't you can tell.
And honestly, you probably won't see it happen much with grades below 5.11, maybe a few 5.10s.

dave higdon wrote:I'm relatively new to the sport of climbing

Dave, according to your profile you're climbing in the 5.6 range. If any of this doesn't make sense, once you gain experience and/or start climbing harder grades, hopefully it will.

Leaving draws on bolts is common. You categorically assume that all draws left on bolts are not to be trusted and yet you inherently trust the bolts themselves? Like Micah said, you should evaluate the fixed draw when you arrive at it and if you don't trust it clip your own to the bolt. Having two draws in a hanger is no big deal but if it bothers you remove the old one and replace it on your way down.

Many times I've swapped out draws I didn't trust with my own my first time up a route and then replaced them when I was done working on the route later in the day.

On some occasions I've decided that not only did I not trust the draws but I felt that they were clearly dangerous and I've removed these draws from the route altogether. Keep in mind this is a judgement call and others might not agree with your standards (but most will say "yeah dude, if it looks that manky, pull it down"). Sometimes I'll leave these draws at the base of the route but most of the time I'll take them home and dispose of them. Either way only after trying to figure out who they might belong to and communicating what I was doing to everyone at the crag (in hopes of finding the owner or at the very least in order to be completely transparent that my intention is not to steal the draws).

The point is that only you can decide what you're comfortable climbing on and while the 5% of the time you encounter manky draws can be a mild annoyance, this is far outweighed by the convenience of having (decent enough) draws already hanging the other 95% of the time.

Rob T wrote: Why do you trust unknown bolts more than unknown draws? If you're suspicious of others gear I'd be a lot more worried about the gear that spends years out exposed to the elements. As for 2 draws on a bolt, that usually works pretty well. If you're unwilling to consider the easiest solution, I suspect you're looking to retread a tired topic rather than genuinely seeking knowledge.

Rob, You're a dick

There is another option: take the draw off the bolt and put your draw on the bolt. When you get to the anchor, replace all of the old draws while you clean yours.

And don't call people dicks.

Josh Janes wrote: Dave, according to your profile you're climbing in the 5.6 range. If any of this doesn't make sense, once you gain experience and/or start climbing harder grades, hopefully it will. Leaving draws on bolts is common. You categorically assume that all draws left on bolts are not to be trusted and yet you inherently trust the bolts themselves? Like Micah said, you should evaluate the fixed draw when you arrive at it and if you don't trust it clip your own to the bolt. Having two draws in a hanger is no big deal but if it bothers you remove the old one and replace it on your way down. Many times I've swapped out draws I didn't trust with my own my first time up a route and then replaced them when I was done working on the route later in the day. On some occasions I've decided that not only did I not trust the draws but I felt that they were clearly dangerous and I've removed these draws from the route altogether. Keep in mind this is a judgement call and others might not agree with your standards (but most will say "yeah dude, if it looks that manky, pull it down"). Sometimes I'll leave these draws at the base of the route but most of the time I'll take them home and dispose of them. Either way only after trying to figure out who they might belong to and communicating what I was doing to everyone at the crag (in hopes of finding the owner or at the very least in order to be completely transparent that my intention is not to steal the draws). The point is that only you can decide what you're comfortable climbing on and while the 5% of the time you encounter manky draws can be a mild annoyance, this is far outweighed by the convenience of having (decent enough) draws already hanging the other 95% of the time

Understood. I guess I leave the ground on a sport route knowing that i'm incurring the risk of trusting bolts. I don't want to add risk by clipping others gear when I have a harness full of my own gear that I know the history of. But I understand your point and I see where your coming from. Seems like its just a pure difference in opinion, which is fair.

Where are there 5.8 climbs with project draws on them?

Dave... Sounds like there is a long list of places you won't be climbing if fixed draws are out of the question for you. That said, feel free to remove stuff if you have to and leave it at the base of the climb. I've seen this at Rifle, Maple Canyon, and s few other places. I've also removed draws that no one should be climbing on and tossed them.

Dave,

What 99% of climbers due is use the existing draws after quickly evaluating them for excessive wear and sharp edges on biners.

Someone (hopefully jokingly) said that they are booty. They are not and the vast majority of climbers would consider that to be theft.

Climbing gear totally failing when it looks good esp a quick draw is pretty unlikely.. I think you should get better at evaluating risk..

It's not a complicated system it's aluminum and (nylon, dynema ect) if it looks new it's probably new.. Very few people are climbing on draws that are somehow super damaged..

Check if the sling looks faded or abraded.. and check the biner for wear.. clip it move on.. Or unclip it and put yours on don't be a pussy about it.

crakatoa wrote: don't be a pussy about it.

Really? If you're leaving draws because you're too lazy to remove them or clip them as you go, I think you need to re-evaluate who your directing that comment at. Take your shit with you.

dave higdon wrote: Really? If you're leaving draws because you're too lazy to remove them or clip them as you go, I think you need to re-evaluate who your directing that comment at. Take your shit with you.

A currently active thread on this topic, along with the 3000 other threads in the forum and you really felt it needed yet another thread from another noob whining about fixed draws?

dave higdon wrote: Really? If you're leaving draws because you're too lazy to remove them or clip them as you go, I think you need to re-evaluate who your directing that comment at. Take your shit with you.

Dawwww are your feeling hurt? Seriously dude it's part of the game.. if you don't like it avoid it.. There's been 4 answers on this thread about what to do plus the 500 other threads.. stop bitching..

dave higdon wrote: Really? If you're leaving draws because you're too lazy to remove them or clip them as you go, I think you need to re-evaluate who your directing that comment at. Take your shit with you.

I think we can say with confidence this now on Troll level, and I for one won't be paying any more attention to dave.

crakatoa wrote: Dawwww are your feeling hurt? Seriously dude it's part of the game.. if you don't like it avoid it.. There's been 4 answers on this thread about what to do plus the 500 other threads.. stop bitching..

This^^^^^^^^

dave higdon wrote: Understood. I guess I leave the ground on a sport route knowing that i'm incurring the risk of trusting bolts. I don't want to add risk by clipping others gear when I have a harness full of my own gear that I know the history of. But I understand your point and I see where your coming from. Seems like its just a pure difference in opinion, which is fair.

no. permanent gear is made out of alloys like steel and titanium. quickdraws are made out of aluminum and nylon.

I know someone who was put in a coma after taking a fall on a trophy draw. the carabiner snapped.

UV degredation and general weather erosion is a serious concern with all materials, more so with materials that have been thinned down to save weight.

Most hanging draws that are left by intelligent climbers are left on a wall that protects the gear from the sun and rain.

read the terrain and be very biased against any gear left on the wall that is not left in a location that is obviously overhanging.

Also, Rob T is a dick as already stated and has contributed nothing intelligible to this conversation except underhanded remarks designed to digress the discussion.

The is a huge difference between steel alloys and aluminum.
Tell me again Rob T about all the aluminum bolts you climb on that remind you of how dimwitted people are to be afraid of them.

• Edit* the colors fade and become dull/flat when UV degredation happens.

Dave have you run in to draws hung on a route you planned to lead, or just seen them on another route at the crag? Were these regular old quick draws with a normal biner on the bolt and a fabric dogbone?

If you found a whole route in the 6-8 grade with draws on it and could find no other parties around I would actually assume someone had been injured somehow and had to leave. There's no way someone is just abandoning their entire set up of quickdraws on a route in that grade, it's easy to clean low angle routes. If they led it to the anchor they could easily climb it again on TR to get their draws.
If I ran into the scenario I would clean all of the draws, then post on the local climbing forums to get them back to their owner.

When you get into harder grades which are significantly overhanging it can be quite difficult to clean. People will frequently project these routes over long periods of time. If the FA party who bolted the route did not equip them with permadraws someone working the route may leave their normal quickdraws on it for a period of time. Do not remove them.

Rob T wrote: Tell me again where I referenced aluminum bolts. There's nothing magical about the steel alloys you reference for fixed gear, it's susceptible to corrosion and degradation just like anything else fixed. The difference is it's a lot harder to see the degradation of the bolt, as compared to the nylon(the most likely component to fail on a fixed draw). I was pointing out that if a person has trouble differentiating degraded from fresh nylon, they're likely in over their head when it comes to ascertaining the reliability the fixed gear in the route. As others have pointed out, it has become clear that point of this thread was not to learn more, but to once again whine about the plague of (some) fixed gear. Since I'm more likely to convince participants to change their political views than understand that different areas have different accepted practices, I'm out.

so your excuse for not discussing UV degredation of aluminum VS steel is because THIS IS NOT AN INTELLIGENT ARGUMENT AND STUPID TROLLS

you're a dick Rob T

caughtinside wrote: You are assuming that all steel and all bolts are created equal. They are not. There is some real junk out there.

yea, and there are also 30 year old bolts that were properly installed and made out of quality materials that I have seen chopped for no other reason that some ignorant safety freak listening to blanket statements.

tell me again about all the 30 year old bolts you have inspected that you consider bomber