Is using a grigri for PAS safe?

Oh you guys are going to love this one. I've had an epiphany and given up on the grigri idea. Instead, what about using an ATC guide in auto-block mode?

Simpler, safer, auto braking and adjustable under tension.

Any reason why this wouldn't work/be safe???

Shane1234 wrote:Oh you guys are going to love this one. I've had an epiphany and given up on the grigri idea. Instead, what about using an ATC guide in auto-block mode? Simpler, safer, auto braking and adjustable under tension. Any reason why this wouldn't work/be safe???

Stop trying to reinvent the wheel. You have the answer, repeated several times - go into the bolts directly with slings/PAS/whatever. Quit worrying about the bolts breaking or pulling out with under 1000 lbs of force. Quite worrying about how to save a couple of seconds on one pitch sport climbs. Stop trying to balance on tiny ledges at the anchors; if it's easier to hang off the bolts - which you'll be doing momentarily anyway when you lower - hang off the bolts.

All this nonsense with using a GriGri or ATC to make a makeshift adjustable tether is just adding needless complexity - *that* is what tends to get people injured.

John Wilder wrote:Also, you're stressing out about glue ins?!? Dude, wait till you come to America. I dream about a day when I can go to a crag that is all glue in bolts.

+1
Just wait for the hand wringing the first time he has to clip a bolt that is driven straight up into a roof!

I agree with all of the above about just using what you have and understanding how it all works.... draws, slings, whatever.

with that being said, if you absolutely want something else i believe that this is what you are asking for

petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Lanya…

Regarding Muir Valley, as I recall in the comments on the AAC facebook post, someone from Muir chimed in saying the document online is a bit outdated, and they have no problem with lowering

John Wilder wrote:Also, you're stressing out about glue ins?!? Dude, wait till you come to America. I dream about a day when I can go to a crag that is all glue in bolts.

Agreed. Australia has plenty of high quality glue in bolts in sport crags. But that is only because they've come from the basis of the sketchyness that is/was carrot bolts.

(Carrot bolts largely did extremely well for their purpose if they were done right. Plenty of old carrots still hold falls. But the fact that they rely on interference fit and are usually home made make them very variable.)

J Marsella wrote:At least he's getting his stubbornness out in the relative safety of the MP forum... If I took a newer climber out who repeatedly ignored / argued against instruction or suggestions about basic, generally-accepted safety practices that would be the last time I climbed with that person. OR, if the same less-experienced climber started doing strange "safety" things that I had never seen and he was unable to cite a valid source or two that justified their use, I would be equally as reticent to continue to climb with that person.

I think this attitude in UNECESSARILY harsh.

The questions being raised show naivety and inexperience but they also show thought. Thought is a far less common characteristic. There are plenty of climbers who trust bolts no matter what. That may be a bad idea in the wrong circumstances.

One might say he is overthinking things at the moment, especially for sport climbing. But that is FAR better than not thinking.

enormocast.com/episode-106-…

Open this podcast, skip to 38:35, and listen to Cedar Wright's advice on the topic.
If you are sport climbing, leave behind the daisy chain, the ATC, and everything else and just clip in with quick draws and thread for the lower off.

patto wrote:The questions being raised show naivety and inexperience but they also show thought. Thought is a far less common characteristic. .... One might say he is overthinking things at the moment, especially for sport climbing. But that is FAR better than not thinking.

As long as it doesn't cross the line into willful ignorance, ie:
Q: I suggest doing X. What do you guys think?
A: 10 answers that say X isn't a good idea and to do Y instead.
Q: Instead of X, how about X with minor variant?

Marc801 wrote: As long as it doesn't cross the line into willful ignorance, ie: Q: I suggest doing X. What do you guys think? A: 10 answers that say X isn't a good idea and to do Y instead. Q: Instead of X, how about X with minor variant?

Actually in my defence, there was only one person who gave a reason why X wasn't a good idea (Victor - constant brake hand). Everyone else was suggesting using alternative methods which is great but this doesn't mean the original idea is flawed. It merely means there is another way.

Look guys, I have no bias here and not arguing against anyone. If someone could have showed how grigri (or atc auto block) was fundamentally unsafe I would have dropped it immediately. But no one did. So my conclusion (grigri is safe) was out of logical summation and not stubbornness.

Yes I really do want an adjustable tether but as I said, I will give the alternative methods a fair go too.

And I do probably need to build a bridge and get over my glue phobia. And finally, yes, vertical roof bolts would freak me out.

Edit: if anyone has real concerns about using the atc please let me know. I've have read what John has said about friction and will look into it. Any other safety issues I should be aware of?

Edit 2: At least an atc is simpler than a grigri. And for the marginal increase in complexity, I get a hands free self locking tether that is adjustable under load and is quicker to set up than any clove hitch.

FYI.

Grigris can and are used as adjustable tethers. Their ease of tightening and releasing can offer certain advantages.

Want to position yourself in at any point in a 3D space? 3 grigris do a mighty fine job for it. Useful for climbing photography.

But yeah even one grigri seems unnecessary complicated for sport climbing tethers.

Shane1234 wrote:Actually in my defence, there was only one person who gave a reason why X wasn't a good idea (Victor - constant brake hand). Everyone else was suggesting using alternative methods which is great but this doesn't mean the original idea is flawed.

Yes, it does, otherwise so many wouldn't have said use tried and true existing methods used all over the climbing world for decades.

Shane1234 wrote:It merely means there is another way. Look guys, I have no bias here. If someone could have showed how grigri (or atc auto block) was fundamentally unsafe I would have dropped it immediately.

It's not that it's inherently unsafe, but adds needless complexity. It is the extra complexity that is unsafe. Again, not by much, but it's always best to keep things as simple as possible, as complex as necessary. You're approaching it from the opposite direction.

Shane1234 wrote:But no one did. So my conclusion was out of logical summation and not stubbornness.

Your logic is flawed.

Shane1234 wrote:Yes I really do want an adjustable tether but as I said, I will give the alternative methods a fair go too.

Many of the replies have tried to explain why this isn't necessary. They're not "alternative" methods, they're the standard methods. You're the one coming up with a less than optimal alternative method. This is where the aggressive willful ignorance business starts to appear.

Shane1234 wrote:Petzl also make an emergency ascender called a Tibloc. It would do the job but it seems to have very aggressive teeth so that's a bit concerning.

Stop. Just stop already.

Shane1234 wrote:And I do probably need to build a bridge and get over my glue phobia.

In terms of attachment to the rock, glue-ins are stronger than mechanical bolts.

Shane1234 wrote:And finally, yes, vertical roof bolts would freak me out.

Get used to them.

Shane1234 wrote:Edit: if anyone has real concerns about using the atc please let me know. I've have read what John has said about friction and will look into it. Any other safety issues I should be aware of?

Guide, so-called auto-locking mode or no, an ATC requires a hand on the braking strand at all times. It is not a hands-free device.
Again, just clip in to the two bolts with a couple of slings.

Well, I'll give one last try.

1. Primary faulty assumption: the ability to fine-tune the anchor length when weighted is important. Reality: it is just about pointless, and doesn't contribute in any way to the safety of the situation. This means that your "logic" is skewed from the very beginning.

2. Secondary faulty assumption: having experienced people continually proposing alternatives doesn't mean your idea is bad. Reality: your idea is bad. Neither the Grigri nor a guide plate is a hands-free device. Given the level of concern you profess about bolts, it would be totally inconsistent of you not to tie off these devices. But then you end up just as much "messing about" as you would have had with the rope and clove hitches, while implementing a system that is more complicated and ultimately less reliable.

The appropriate mantra with mechanical belay devices is "what you don't know can get you killed." For example, Jim Titt tested the use of guide plates as top-rope solo devices (an application not especially different than the one you are proposing) and found that if there is any slack in the rope so that you actually drop onto the device, the load can be enough to force the ropes to swap positions, causing the device to release.

There also seem to be gaps in your descriptions, as noted by rocknice2. The rap rings on bolted rap stations are either directly connected to both bolts, or the top bolt is connected to the bottom bolt and the rap ring is connected to the bottom bolt. Or, there might be two rings, one connected to each bolt. No matter which of these is the case, a quick draw on the rap ring or rings clipped to your harness connects you to both bolts, regardless of how they are placed, so no worries about one being higher or off to the side a bit.

But I guess we have to assume that not only are you concerned about the bolts, you are also worried about the rap rings and connecting chains and so want to be backed up directly to the bolts while setting up for lowering. I think that at a certain point the level of paranoia you experience means you shouldn't be climbing at all, because there are risk combinations you can't fully control, and you are proposing solutions with other risk combinations that might be just as likely. But let's embrace the paranoia anyway, because it in this case it is easy to accommodate it.

So here you are, hanging from the rap rings by a quickdraw, still protected from ultimate disaster by your belay through lower pieces. Put a carabiner on each bolt, clove your rope to the lower carabiner and then to the higher one, you are fully backed-up, independent of the rings and chains, regardless of how the bolts are placed.

Now you've spoken about blindfolded clove-hitching, but your comments about having to "mess about" suggest that you don't know how to use clove hitches on carabiners, and are first installing the clove hitch and then adjusting it. The correct way is to learn how to clip the rope to the carabiner, get the length of the tether arm exactly as you want it (this can even be done while hanging off the carabiner), and then throwing on the extra half-hitch that makes a clove hitch and gives you the precise tether length you desire. See for example

vimeo.com/68084797

youtube.com/watch?v=nuCaOLa…

You do this first on the lower carabiner and then on the upper one. This takes me about seven seconds after the carabiners are in place---I just timed it and didn't rush. When setting up this backup, you want to leave just a tiny touch of slack from the first bolt to your harness so that the tie-in won't be weighted when it comes time to untie your rope.

The rest of the lowering process is done as in the AAC demonstration. Take the rope running down from the top carabiner on the bolt, form a bight, push the bight through the rap rings, tie a figure-eight, and clip that to the harness belay loop with a locker or two opposed regular carabiners. Untie the climbing rope from your harness and remove the clove hitches and carabiners from the bolts. At this point, you are still hanging from the quick draw but your rope is threaded through the rings. Make sure your belayer takes, pull up and unclip the draw, and away you go.

Maybe he's paranoid about bolts because of what he's seen locally?
safercliffs.org/code/photos…

This has already been alluded to, but I think it deserves more attention. I'm rather alarmed that you are balancing rather than weighting your tether. This is the single most dangerous aspect of your proposed tether system, as you run a real risk of shock-loading your anchor, and shock loading it in an outwards direction. Rule #1 with tethers is to always load / sit down on the tether so you can't shock load the anchor, particularly if you don't trust the bolts (that way you're testing them whilst still belayed by the lower lead bolts before you commit your weight to them on lower/abseil). With your scenario (feet on ledge and tether not really loaded, quite possibly not directly under the bolt), a slip at the belay is going to see the top half of your body pivot out against your feet, increasing the outwards component on the bolt.

If you're worried about outward force on a bolt, the solution is to use a longer tether, lower yourself down onto it, and forget about your feet. This will ensure that the force is more or less directly down on the bolt. If you were to go ahead with your tether idea (not recommended), the only way to make it vaguely safe would be to fully sit down on and load the tether to make sure that the cam on the grigri was engaged / the guide is statically jammed.

One unmentioned risk with both the grigri and atc guide is that they protrusions in the rock could force the cam open / the guide into an unlocked state. This is a particular issue when used at the anchor end of the tether (as proposed) as they will be forced into the rock in any fall.

this is a scary glue in bolt I avoided for years. and for good reason.

modern glue-ins are usually a few inches deep into the rock and will hold a fall even when loose from EXTREME use.

Andrew Wood wrote: this is a scary glue in bolt I avoided for years. and for good reason. modern glue-ins are usually a few inches deep into the rock and will hold a fall even when loose from EXTREME use.

This was an example of an incorrectly installed bolt. Generally speaking, a correctly installed bolt in a horizontal roof will hold more than you could ever put on it in a sport climbing scenario.

I agree with most of the other voices. OP is over thinking this, and should go in with two slings/draws/pas/whatever.

But, thinking about this application it seems a stopper knot with appropriate tail in the free end of the tether line would back up the grigri to prevent death, and most injury should the grigri fail to hold (along with a secondary tether I'm assuming the OP is also using?). I'm also assuming the tether line isn't very long - maybe 3ft?

A critical aspect to weighting your tether throughout the process is you can't accidentally unclip a weighted biner

Medic741 wrote:A critical aspect to weighting your tether throughout the process is you can't accidentally unclip a weighted biner

A critical aspect to weighting your tether throughout the process is you can't
accidentally unclip ~ FROM ~ a weighted biner.

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