Cigarettes and climbing courtesy.

Caleb Jones wrote:Well, I know I'm late to the party on this discussion. But... smoking at the crag must not have always been such a contentious issue. See photo from "Basic Rockcraft" by Royal Robbins (C) 1971 Pg 53

The guy in the photo is smoking AND free soloing, the double F.U. to society. I would much rather climb around someone free soloing than smoking.

owen david wrote: The guy in the photo is smoking AND free soloing, the double F.U. to society. I would much rather climb around someone free soloing than smoking.

This is where you're wrong, Owen. A smoker isn't doing anything to "society." Unless he's leaving his butts behind, throwing lit cigarettes out the car window or blowing it directly in your face, it's his personal habit.

But keep the misguided jihad going. I need the laughs.

owen david wrote: So why haven't cigarettes been banned?

Segue into cigarette ban noted.

FrankPS wrote: This is where you're wrong, Owen. A smoker isn't doing anything to "society." Unless he's leaving his butts behind, throwing lit cigarettes out the car window or blowing it directly in your face, it's his personal habit. But keep the misguided jihad going. I need the laughs.

Smokers increase the cost of health insurance for everyone, so yeah it actually does effect society. Aside from that it also costs taxpayers through Medicare.

tim wrote: Smokers increase the cost of health insurance for everyone, so yeah it actually does effect society. Aside from that it also costs taxpayers through Medicare.

True, as does overeating and alcohol. Should we ban all unhealthy activities? And rescues from climbing also cost taxpayers money. No more climbing without posting bond.

FrankPS wrote: True, as does overeating and alcohol. Should we ban all unhealthy activities? And rescues from climbing also cost taxpayers money. No more climbing without posting bond.

I'm not making an argument either way, just pointing out an ignorant comment.

tim wrote: I'm not making an argument either way, just pointing out an ignorant comment.

Yes, I overlooked the costs to society though healthcare. Thanks for recogizing my "ignorance."

Edit: You forgot to point out that smoking provides jobs, too! In both the tobacco and healthcare industries. :)

Edit #2: Cigarette sales provide taxes to society, too.

tim wrote: Smokers increase the cost of health insurance for everyone, so yeah it actually does effect society.

Most if not all insurance plans, especially the group plans offered by employers, have either a surcharge for smokers or reduced rates for non-smokers. At my last company, as a non-smoker, my portion of our Aetna PPO plan cost me $250 less per year.

gjmike wrote: Segue into cigarette ban noted.

Maybe he learned they are sometimes called "fags" and just wants a name change?

owen david wrote: LOL, lead-based paints and asbestos were still legal when this illustration was published.

Asbetos is still legally used today, just not in certain applications. Same thing for lead-based paint. ... not unlike smoking outside when there are not restrictions about fire danger.

owen david wrote: The guy in the photo is smoking AND free soloing, the double F.U. to society. I would much rather climb around someone free soloing than smoking.

In all fairness, he did spit out the cigarette in the last frame.

FrankPS wrote: This is where you're wrong, Owen. A smoker isn't doing anything to "society." Unless he's leaving his butts behind, throwing lit cigarettes out the car window or blowing it directly in your face, it's his personal habit. But keep the misguided jihad going. I need the laughs.

LOL, you say "you're wrong" then use three examples to contradict that. Just listen to yourself if you need to laugh.

gjmike wrote: Segue into cigarette ban noted.

Thanks for suiting up.

Caleb Jones wrote:Well, I know I'm late to the party on this discussion. But... smoking at the crag must not have always been such a contentious issue. See photo from "Basic Rockcraft" by Royal Robbins (C) 1971 Pg 53

Maybe he was smoking b/c he was in a "chimney". ROFL.

owen david wrote: LOL, you say "you're wrong" then use three examples to contradict that.

He did no such thing.

Unpossessive of a PhD in Philosophy, I'm ill-equipped to debate the morality of tobacco use vis-a-vis the greater good of society. But as a dude with an instinct for courtesy I'm inclined to not do things that discomfort the people around me. In a perfect world we'd all be thoughtful, mature and respectful; absent such perfection the best we can do is allow each other space to learn life's lessons. So, if somebody is smoking near me (and I really can't stand second-hand smoke) I'll either move away if I can or ask them politely to move away from me, all while accepting 100% responsibility for my involvement in the situation.

Carry on, Owen David, with your wonderful and subtly antagonistic posts. Some folks here fail pitifully to recognize genius. Good stuff.

tim wrote: Smokers increase the cost of health insurance for everyone, so yeah it actually does effect society. Aside from that it also costs taxpayers through Medicare.

This is only true because in our society people are not held financially responsible for their own healthcare. I would much prefer a system in which one was free to make one's own choices, but also held responsible for the results.

owen david wrote: LOL, lead-based paints and asbestos were still legal when this illustration was published. So why haven't cigarettes been banned? They do just as much damage to the human body. Great historic contribution to the thread!!! Thanks Caleb!

So I take it in the name of public safety we should keep marijuana illegal too then? The American Lung Association says it's full of known carcinogens. lung.org/stop-smoking/smoki…

owen david wrote: Maybe he was smoking b/c he was in a "chimney". ROFL.

Ok, loved Owen's "smoking in chimney" joke. (Clever) Should have thought of that one myself!

You might also enjoy this:
(See photo from "Basic Rockcraft" by Royal Robbins (C) 1971 Pg 41)

I posted the drawings from the great Royal Robbins’ book of people smoking while climbing because I thought it was a funny juxtaposition with the current discussion. However, Robbins was quite a philosopher on climbing ethics and his 1971 treatise may have the seminal summary of the situation, lo these 45 years later. He said:

“Most climbers are individuals who love freedom – they climb because it makes them feel free. We may expect then, that having others suggest how they ought to climb will rub wrong. There used to be so few climbers that it didn’t matter where one drove a piton, there wasn’t a worry about demolishing the rock. Now things are different. There are so many of us, and there will be more. A simple equation exists between freedom and numbers: the more people the less freedom. If we are to retain the beauties of the sport, the fine edge, the challenge, we must consider our style of climbing.” Basic Rockcraft, Robbins, 1971

So as someone who has climbed (and smoked) for decades, next time I’m at the crag, I’ll think of Robbins and consider my environment a bit more before I drive a piton…or light up a cigar. 