Haul System Feedback

Jeff0 wrote:I upgraded my pulleys to 2" PMP SMC's. Now..just need a 4" frost (to replace the red draw sling)...anyone...anyone...bueller...bueller?

Don't think the Frost is necessary? Pete? Mark? Is there any reason a plain ol' quickdraw with lockers, two chained lockers, or a the pictured cord is bad for the upper pulley?

I must say that Pete is correct in saying that this system is not a plug and play setup without practicing and optimizing. Our team tried using this last week for hauling 3-people's worth of kit and we had not practiced or optimized it. It did not go well and we quickly reverted back to two-person hauling. I still don't completely know what was not right with our setup, but I was exhausted after hauling half a pitch by myself with this system.

csproul wrote: Don't think the Frost is necessary? Pete? Mark? Is there any reason a plain ol' quickdraw with lockers, two chained lockers, or a the pictured cord is bad for the upper pulley? I must say that Pete is correct in saying that this system is not a plug and play setup without practicing and optimizing. Our team tried using this last week for hauling 3-people's worth of kit and we had not practiced or optimized it. It did not go well and we quickly reverted back to two-person hauling. I still don't completely know what was not right with our setup, but I was exhausted after hauling half a pitch by myself with this system.

The frost isn't for the upper pulley, but the microtrax...which may not be needed. The draw sling only has a little give.

Jeff0 wrote: The frost isn't for the upper pulley, but the microtrax...which may not be needed. The draw sling only has a little give.

Sorry..yes, I meant to say the trax, not the upper pulley.

Pete's correct, 3:1 is almost always overkill. Although for very small people with very large loads it might be the only way. It'll get the bags up, but it is soul crushingly slow.

Go to my page (noted above), buy exactly that gear and set it up exactly that way. You will NOT make a system that is significantly lighter or more efficient.

Jeff0, that system is sweet! You're golden. Now, just go out and learn how to use it effectively. It's not rocket science but it does take some practice and figuring out.

Jeff0 wrote:I upgraded my pulleys to 2" PMP SMC's. Now..just need a 4" frost (to replace the red draw sling)...anyone...anyone...bueller...bueller?

The frost draw is pointless. The stretch in a short nylon or spectra is tiny compared to stretch in the 5 feet of perlon. I use spectra, and chop off the last 3 feet after each wall.

Moof, I believe I used a regular draw once and was amazed at how much it stretched. It was easily 1/2 inch.
I may be remembering this incorrectly so give it a try yourself.

But yeah, a loop of Spectra is da bomb.

Also, I've used the frost draw, but a large biner that spans the upper pully works well also.

I guess my point is that under body weight you get about the same percent stretch (if not more) out of a 6-7 mm nylon Zee cord (I'm american, so no Zed for me) as in the draw. So the 1/2" stretch you saw in a 5-6" draw is more like 3-5" over the length of the Zee cord, but hard to notice due to all the movement involved.

My main gripes with the Canadian Assassin's original rig as posted on rc.com years back were the low efficiency pulleys (>30% loss in efficiency) and the stretchy Zee cord. Yet a very large amount of the discussion was around the stupid Frost draw that really was #3 or #4 on the list of efficiency issues. Even the climbing.com tech tip write up with spiffy picture harped on this minor issue while ignoring pulley efficiency.

I agree with you conclusions for how to optimize this setup. I really like your rig where there is no draw and everything is nicely in a line. I shamelessly copied your rig when building mine and have been very happy. Spectra likely has a short life, and I chopped off a few feet after Zodiac to nip things in the bud, but I don't haul loads near as gargantuan as Pete (seeing the van pull into the valley with his pile of haul bags lashed to the top was quite the sight).

My only change from your setup was to use two 6" titan spectra slings at the very top instead of your double loop of perlon. I see that point being worthy of extra redundancy, since it is holding the whole shit show from funking you downward if the top pulley chewed through the perlon without being noticed.

Here is my haul kit... Its been refined over the last few years of big wall routes.

My 2:1 haul kit

I use the CMC rescue 'omni block' pulley, it has a ball bearing sheave and a awesome built in swivel..

Swivel pulley with ball bearing sheave

I also use a custom wire draw that I fabricated myself. Before anyone questions my expertise, I'm a professional rigger...

Funny story about that wire draw.... It earned me the greatest big wall climbing mentor and great friend anyone could hope for... Wouldn't you say Mark?

Skot Richards wrote:Here is my haul kit... Its been refined over the last few years of big wall routes. I use the CMC rescue 'omni block' pulley, it has a ball bearing sheave and a awesome built in swivel.. I also use a custom wire draw that I fabricated myself. Before anyone questions my expertise, I'm a professional rigger... Funny story about that wire draw.... It earned me the greatest big wall climbing mentor and great friend anyone could hope for... Wouldn't you say Mark?

Well sprayed sir, I'd let you haul me up a wall. . . . if only there were a bit less of me you'd be willing to too. ... Ho wait you don't haul each other up ? How do you get the rope up there?. ..B^{D

Just go buy exactly Skot's set up, you can't build a better set up.

Yeah, one of these days I'm going to write a story about that wire draw.

Mark Hudon wrote:Just go buy exactly Skot's set up, you can't build a better set up. Yeah, one of these days I'm going to write a story about that wire draw.

I wanna hear the story!!!

Skot Richards - What size is your Omni-Block? I'm pretty sure I can see the '1.1' on the pulley in the picture. I was admiring those last week and contemplating their worthiness - would you use the 1.1 again, or go bigger? Past threads with input from Mark Hudon and 'Pass the Pitons' Pete make good points about BIGGER pulleys. Apparently the 1.1 size is efficient enough?

I have used the 2" version but the pulley, block and swivel are heavier than necessary, Mark and I have used the 1.1" you see pictured on our last 3 walls without any issues. The small diameter of the zee cord works beautifully with the size of the sheave, which is 1.1" as the markings indicate.
A larger sheave is really only necessary if you were using a lead rope sized cord. I have zero plans to ever use any other pulley. This one is amazing. The compact size and the built in swivel are awesome.

To a point, all pulleys of X efficiency are all the same. A 98% efficient 1" sheave pulley is the same as a 98% efficient 15" sheave pulley.
The force required to bend a 10mm rope over a 1" sheave is different than bending a 10mm rope over a 15" sheave.
But the difference between bending a 5mm cord over either sheave has to be almost too small to notice.

Thank you for the confirmation Skot. Mark - your point about efficiency vs size makes sense. Thanks