Top Rope Anchor Safety and Locking Biners

When building anchors I tend to use locking biners. My understanding is if using non-locking biners they should be opposed, and this is to keep the rope from accidently pushing out of either biner in the case it's pushed in to a rock formation.

Is there any safety issue with replacing the opposed non-locking biners with a single locking biner? I was chewed out by a couple guys on a trip recently for this, but I have seen other climbers use a single locking carabiner as well.

The reason given was the single carabiner breaking vs the strength of two carabiners.

Obviously two carabiners breaking is less likely than a single biner, but a single biner should be more than strong enough.

Thoughts?

Where in the system are you using it? Are you clipping it to one of your pieces or using it to connect it to your master point? Are you hanging the rope off of it?

If it's the former, you're fine. If it's the latter, you're safe, although I like to use two locking carabiners. The increased surface area will yield much smoother feeding of the rope and a much more pleasant belaying experience, plus 2 lockers opposite and opposed is as bomber as it gets.

Your carabiners aren't going to break in a TR setup.

If the reason they wanted 2 lockers is because they were concerned one by itself might not be strong enough to withstand the forces generated in toproping, they are misinformed about the strength of carabiners or the forces in toproping or both. Or they're a bit alarmist. Or messing with you. Or you're messing with us. Or all of the above.

That being said, we've all got to be comfortable with the anchors we trust our lives to. If it makes them happy to add an extra locker, let them - doesn't hurt anything. Maybe recommend some additional education once everyone is down off the climb.

For the masterpoint, use two lockers or one locker and one non-locker. Unlikely either carabiner will break or the rope will pop out, but stick with two for a yo-yo/slingshot toprope.

Redundancy is good and easy to achieve for this application, even though there are several components of our climbing systems that are not redundant (rope, belay loop, etc.)

As Ted said, two biners will reduce friction. If you don't have two lockers just use two opposed nonlockers, or three if it gives everyone a warm fuzzy.

FWIW AMGA guidelines (which are based around guiding, and limiting liability) recommend 3 non-locker's, or 2 locker's.

Practically, if their concern is the biner breaking, well, you only have one rope also...

I'd say this is one of the judgement calls you and your partner need to agree on. If someone who is actually using the system is uncomfortable with it, then I would adjust unless what they request present a danger in your mind. Then discuss it, and if you can't agree, or work out a solution: don't climb with that person.

I try not to comment on other's set-up's unless I see a truly imminent threat. People who "chew you out" for stuff like this are jack-asses.

I always use 2 biners in the master point of a toprope. One locking biner is not sufficient IMO. The biner is out of sight and unattended. If it comes unlocked, or you forget to lock it, you are TRing on a single unlocked biner. If you have never seen a locking carabiner come unlocked, you have either not been climbing long enough or you haven't been paying attention.

Use whatever makes you and your partner feel secure. For TRing I usually use 1 locker and a steel non-locker (for durability). I probably wouldn't have a problem with a single locker, though, unless it seemed prone to rubbing on the rock or something else that could unlock/open it.

In the end, everybody has different thresholds for acceptable risk and that's okay. Listen to your intuition; if it doesn't feel right then it probably isn't.

J Marsella wrote:I was taught to set up TR anchors with a locker on each bolt and two lockers at the master point. But this was for Group TR sessions. I will use this type of redundancy for similar situations, still. As for single-run TR, I am satisfied with two QDs with opposed gates through which to thread the rope. And this seems to be fairly standard.

This is my usual approach. I tend to bring 2 or 3 options up if I haven't climbed the route before since you never know when standard quickdraws will sit funny, be at a weird angle, be pressed in rock, etc.

2 carabiners (lockers or non-lockers opposite and opposed) is the way to go for a TR anchor. Gates get rubbed open, carabiners get cross-loaded, and you likely won't notice it 30 meters above you. It's gentler on the rope, redundant, and you're TR'ing... do you really need to go minimalist?

Redundancy doesn't cost or weigh very much. I use 2 lockers for the master-point and one for each bolt on a toprope anchor.

Brandon R. wrote:2 carabiners (lockers or non-lockers opposite and opposed) is the way to go for a TR anchor. Gates get rubbed open, carabiners get cross-loaded, and you likely won't notice it 30 meters above you. It's gentler on the rope, redundant, and you're TR'ing... do you really need to go minimalist?

This...

csproul wrote:If you have never seen a locking carabiner come unlocked, you have either not been climbing long enough or you haven't been paying attention.

Screw gates, sure, lots of times. The modern auto-lockers? I don't recall ever seeing one unlock on its own. Doesn't mean it hasn't or can't happen. Have you seen one unlock without human help?

I think a more interesting question is why wouldn't you use two lockers?

Marc801 wrote: Screw gates, sure, lots of times. The modern auto-lockers? I don't recall ever seeing one unlock on its own. Doesn't mean it hasn't or can't happen. Have you seen one unlock without human help?

No, I don't typically use auto lockers. I'd imagine it would be pretty hard for them to come unlocked without something interfering with the gate or locking mechanism. But two biners will also help guard against the situation where user error never got the biner properly attached or locked in the first place, including something sticking the gate slightly open.

rgold wrote:I think a more interesting question is why wouldn't you use two lockers?

All that extra weight won't let you send a 50' 5.8 sport route on lead? :)

Nick Drake wrote: All that extra weight won't let you send a 50' 5.8 sport route on lead? :)

Um, check the subject of the thread.......

Marc801 wrote: Um, check the subject of the thread.......

Um, check for your sense of humor...........

I'm an opposite and opposed locker person because of situations like this.

Party has choice of multiple routes that wander enough that you can pick from two sets of anchors while climbing. The first person up leads a route and opts to go to my route's anchors due to rope wear considerations.

That climber is lowered and pulls the rope. While that pair is switching climber and belayer, I start up my route, not knowing that the first leader opted for my route's anchors. I find a sliding X with one locker for the rope. The gate is closed but unscrewed. I added an opposed locker, clip, screw gates down.

Me, back on the ground:
"Just out of curiosity, do you normally use only one locker on your sliding X?"

First leader:
"Yeah. You only need one."

Me:
"Ok. Just wondering, because the gate was unscrewed"

First leader:
"Crap, really?"

Nothing wrong done overall, I just prefer redundancy since we were running multiple people up to the same sliding X, with one person planning to TR and clean at the end.

Two opposed non-locking carabiners are fine and has always have been - bumping up to anything else is more a matter of emotional or commercial protection.

Yeah, it is super easy (and common) to forget to lock a biner. For that reason, 2 nonlockers might actually be safer than 1 locker.