Folding a rope to test wear/life left?

A buddy of mine, who climbs pretty hard and logs a fair amount of air time on his ropes, told me that he uses a "folding test" to see how much life is left in his rope.

Basically he just folds the rope over between thumb and forefinger, trying to make a 180 degree bend with the rope sheath in contact all the way out to the apex of the bend. If he can't get the sheaths to touch each other (ie, there's a little "eye" formed by the bend in the rope), he feels there's some miles left in the rope. When he can get the eye to disappear, he thinks that the sheath is shot and the rope should be retired.

Thoughts?

youtu.be/yLmd0100T9g

FrankPS wrote:https://youtu.be/yLmd0100T9g

'Course, he climbs trad 12 while I (and you, if your profile reflects your abilities) do not, so maybe we both have something to learn from him Frank?

How hard you climb is not indicative of knowledge, experience, understanding or level of safety.

On a side note, I do a similar bend test to see if my phone needs replacing. Strangely enough, it needs replacing every time.

Climbing in the gym a fair amount, on ropes that range from brand new to old as dirt, I have definitely noticed that pliability/squishiness/floppiness correlates very strongly to wear, at least in that environment. Is pliability caused by a failing rope? I don't know.

Some core shots also, in my examination, seem to offer no resistance at all to being folded in half.

Ray Lovestead wrote: On a side note, I do a similar bend test to see if my phone needs replacing. Strangely enough, it needs replacing every time.

That's the thing: my rope can pass the test your phone is failing. :)

hmmm, i have had ropes that wouldn't pass this test when they are brand new. too stiff. on the other hand, i have had ropes that were really beat to hell that would pass this test no problem. i don't think this would be a very indicative test.

The test is to see if the rope is still stiff (forms an eye) as if it were new. If the sheath has bunched up around a section of core, or the core has untwisted or broken, then that section will be floppy and can be bent 180* without forming an eye.
At least, that's the theory.

slim wrote:hmmm, i have had ropes that wouldn't pass this test when they are brand new. too stiff. on the other hand, i have had ropes that were really beat to hell that would pass this test no problem. i don't think this would be a very indicative test.

I think you're reading it backwards.

But nonetheless I think the test isn't that great. Some ropes (certain brands perhaps, mammut?) are inherently stiff and can sometimes get even stiffer with time. Some ropes (beal?) are a lot softer straight out of the box.

climbing friend,

the test is good reasonable, but not the be all end all. utilize your common sense and other informations.

is there a core shot where sheath it is tearing through total complete to core?

localized soft/flat spot or other core deformity, like deformity of your little nephew Tómas?

Nathanael wrote: I think you're reading it backwards. But nonetheless I think the test isn't that great. Some ropes (certain brands perhaps, mammut?) are inherently stiff and can sometimes get even stiffer with time. Some ropes (beal?) are a lot softer straight out of the box.

yeah, after re-reading the op i think you are right (i was reading it backwards). i still don't really think it would be a valuable test though - there is quite a difference between different ropes.

Aleks Zebastian wrote:climbing friend, the test is good reasonable, but not the be all end all. utilize your common sense and other informations. is there a core shot where sheath it is tearing through total complete to core? localized soft/flat spot or other core deformity, like deformity of your little nephew Tómas?

The sheath is in good shape, some occasional bits of fuzz. I'm guessing it's got 3 or 4 hundred pitches on it, and it's a little over 4 years old. The main abnormality is that over most of its length the rope is oval rather than round in cross section. No real flat spots. Basically the rope is in really good shape considering what it's been through, which is why it seems like a shame to retire it.

The test is not necessarily illustrative if you do it at only one spot. Part of inspecting your rope is inspecting your *entire* rope, so it's less "can I make an eye" and more "how does the eye (or the effort needed to bend the rope) changing over the course of the rope?"

If you are taking a lot of falls, then the dog spot will be very easy to find using this test. Once found, you still have to make a judgement call about whether or not it's still safe.

Jameshew12 wrote:Yes, this exact technique is recommended in the manual for the Petzl rope that I recently purchased. Yes, it is one way to get an indication and a rope manufacturer suggests it. However, it is only one test that gives a general idea and there are others that are important too.

James, I googled around on petzl's site a little but couldn't find what you were referencing, could you give me a few clues so I can find it? Maybe rope name and manual page #?

Brian Scoggins wrote:The test is not necessarily illustrative if you do it at only one spot. Part of inspecting your rope is inspecting your *entire* rope, so it's less "can I make an eye" and more "how does the eye (or the effort needed to bend the rope) changing over the course of the rope?" If you are taking a lot of falls, then the dog spot will be very easy to find using this test. Once found, you still have to make a judgement call about whether or not it's still safe.

I did try the test in multiple spots. One thing is that I very rarely fall. This is a problem for my progression as a climber, but does make my ropes last longer. :)

To me this is partly an environmental question. There is surely a whole lot of embodied energy in a rope, and it seems none too green to unnecessarily retire a rope years before its time...

I am aware of this test, it's good for knowing when a ropes fucked, mainly useful for gym and sport though if you do trad your ropes sheaf is going to be shredded long before you take enough falls on it to wear out the rope like this. If you do the test before and after a long gym session you will notice a big difference in the test, but when left over night to recover you will get similar results to when the rope was fresh, i'm only guessing but it seems to be testing the elasticity of the fibers, and as tests by black diamond (or was it rock and ice?) have shown impact forces get higher and higher the more you fall on the rope also as the rope ages and the nylon gets repeatedly stretch the elasticity of the nylon gets less and less over time. That's my guess at least, talking out of my ass.

Optimistic wrote: I did try the test in multiple spots. One thing is that I very rarely fall. This is a problem for my progression as a climber, but does make my ropes last longer. :) To me this is partly an environmental question. There is surely a whole lot of embodied energy in a rope, and it seems none too green to unnecessarily retire a rope years before its time...

The way I was taught the test (for inspecting gym lead ropes) is to do the test, move 6 inches, do the test, move another 6 inches, all the way through. And if you're not taking a lot of falls, and not dropping heavy things on your rope, the test won't tell you anything, the point is to find serious core damage. As was said, if you're not doing anything to damage the core, then the sheath is the thing to inspect.

I follow the manufacturer's recommendations for retiring stored or lightly used ropes. If the rope develops a dog spot, then you cross over into moderate or high usage.

Optimistic wrote:To me this is partly an environmental question. There is surely a whole lot of embodied energy in a rope, and it seems none too green to unnecessarily retire a rope years before its time...

What about the environmental impact of a visit to the trauma center?

Ropes are one of the few systems we use that are completely non-redundant. Some conservatism is warranted. Plus, if you retire your ropes a year too early, over the course of a whole climbing career that works out to... what, three or four extra ropes? Trust me, that's peanuts compared to the rest of your ecological impact.

that guy named seb wrote:I am aware of this test, it's good for knowing when a ropes fucked, mainly useful for gym and sport though if you do trad your ropes sheaf is going to be shredded long before you take enough falls on it to wear out the rope like this. If you do the test before and after a long gym session you will notice a big difference in the test, but when left over night to recover you will get similar results to when the rope was fresh, i'm only guessing but it seems to be testing the elasticity of the fibers, and as tests by black diamond (or was it rock and ice?) have shown impact forces get higher and higher the more you fall on the rope also as the rope ages and the nylon gets repeatedly stretch the elasticity of the nylon gets less and less over time. That's my guess at least, talking out of my ass.

That's pretty much it, as I understand it. The biggest age to a gym rope that doesn't see sheath damage is permanent stretching of the core and loss of elasticity. An old gym or sport rope that's survived will be more like a static rope and can't lower peak force on the anchors like when new. The breaking strength of the rope is still going to be 20-35kn, so your anchor or draws are much more likely to break than the rope still.

I'm not saying don't retire the rope if it looks fine, but be aware that older ropes that aren't giving soft catches anymore should be retired from lead climbing and used for TR, rigging, home use, or rugs.

Jameshew12 wrote: Page three here shows it: file:///Users/owner1/Downloads/technical-notice-DYNAMIC-ROPES-1.pdf (not sure if this will open for you) if not, go to link below and download This is from the tech info download below specs from here petzl.com/en/Sport/Ropes/AR…

The test is pictured here...
petzl.com/US/en/Sport/When-…

Thanks James

With obvious signs of damage or a huge fall, it's easy to know when to retire a rope. However, it's the other times that it's difficult to decide.

In these situations, Petzl calls it right - retire "when you no longer have confidence in the rope." The last thing I want to think about when leading is "will my rope fail if I fall?"

How much is your life worth (or breaking bones)? If your rope normally lasts 5 years, and you retire it in four, how much does that cost you? If the rope cost $250, then the average cost per year is $50, so it cost you $50. But still useful for top roping. Is your life or broken bones worth $50?

If I start to question a piece of gear, I retire it...

SAR and Fire departments keep rope logs and document every use of the rope. Perhaps climbers should do the same thing...