Logistics and technique of ground-up bolting with glue-ins?

I believe the powers 5pc (old rawl) is also removable. It is readily available in a variety of sizes, so you could get something smaller than 12mm to place on lead if that is a concern for you. Also, you could get 4 plated steel 3/8" powers bolts for the cost of 1 triplex. You'll be removing them within a day or so anyway, would the steel be OK for that short time?

Update - Per Dr.Rockso below, this could be a poor choice as they are not easily removed.

When people say the 5 piece is removal they mean you can get all the pieces out to reuse the hole, but it isn't as easy as just unscrewing the bolt. Easily removable? No. Definitely easier to go with triplex or legacy.

Cashmab,

Sorry I didn't see this earlier, I'm been on a ski holiday and haven't been checking MP.

I've placed several hundreds of Ti glue-ins, but only on single pitch routes, so you have problems I don't have.

Greg Barnes gave a lot of good advice so I won't go over that again. But here's some other thoughts:

1) I always top rope my routes several times, and encourage others (smaller reaches) to join in. This way I'm sure about getting the bolts in the right place for clipping and safety. When you're placing a bolt that will last for centuries and costs a lot, you want it in the right place the first time.

To do this I just use 3/8" plated bolts for temporary anchors and directionals (if I can't find a thread, nut, etc.). I over-drill the holes and when I've placed the Ti bolts, I remove the nut and hanger, pound the shaft in and counter-sink it. Where I'm developing, the hole commonly fills in by itself in a few years!

2) Just agreeing with several people, use RE-500. Martin will be upset if you use something else.

3) Use a 14mm bit for the Eternas. Also, search MP for my photo of a "clown nose" to put on your hammer. You don't want to hit the Eternas with a steel hammer. You also need a "stick", like a popsicle stick with a squared end, to sculpt the glue. And don't take one big rag. Tear/cut the rag into 3x3 inch squares. Use one for each bolt, wipe the stick, glue nozzle, etc. Put used squares into a plastic bag. Otherwise glue gets on EVERYTHING, and you'll have trouble letting go of the drill ;-)

So, where is this highly corrosive environment?

Thanks John.

The location is Playa Fronton in the Dominican Republic. The area has some of the best limestone in North America / Caribbean, and is in an incredibly beautiful paradise location -- but currently has a reputation as being a horridly unsafe place to climb due to dangerously corroding hardware. It is like a little piece of Thailand except it's just a couple hour plane ride from the eastern US.

Some pics :

Holy smokes, that is some rusty mank.

I don't know, looks a lot like a lot of the bolts in Krabi in the early 90's which were garbage within 2-3 years of being placed.

cashmab wrote:Thanks John. The location is Playa Fronton in the Dominican Republic. The area has some of the best limestone in North America / Caribbean, and is in an incredibly beautiful paradise location -- but currently has a reputation as being a horridly unsafe place to climb due to dangerously corroding hardware. It is like a little piece of Thailand except it's just a couple hour plane ride from the eastern US. Some pics (Photos by Andrew Burr):

Yeah, the DR got notoriety in 2009 when the UIAA posted their warning about bolt corrosion in tropical marine areas and the DR was "featured" by including a bunch of photos of broken DR hardware. And let me point out that ALL areas in the Caribbean need Ti, not just specific places such as the DR and Cayman Brac.

Is there a rebolting effort underway? Your post it sounded like you were putting up a new route, but it could be a rebolt too. (?)

Just a couple thoughts that may or may not be good in your situation:

For rusted plated bolts, such as in the first photo, you may be able to just drill out the rusted shaft with a 3/8" drill, then re-drill the hole with the 14mm. On the other hand, I found that using the old bolts as directionals to stay close to the rock while rebolting was really a time/effort saver, even if a few snapped off each route.

After rebolting we mostly removed the old hardware on most routes to eliminate confusion (specific SS bolts may still look good) and to keep rust stains from worsening. However we did leave a few for "historical" reasons, kinda like leaving a Kor piton on a route.

Have you actually started the work? I'll be on Cayman Brac Feb 20 through March and will be bolting. I've been placing Ti glue-ins for 16 years there, and can give you a hands-on training if you want to come down.

RBs are only about as much as a cam. Dont need a whole rack of them either if you leap frog some. Gotta pay to play.

John Byrnes wrote: Yeah, the DR got notoriety in 2009 when the UIAA posted their warning about bolt corrosion in tropical marine areas and the DR was "featured" by including a bunch of photos of broken DR hardware. And let me point out that ALL areas in the Caribbean need Ti, not just specific places such as the DR and Cayman Brac. Is there a rebolting effort underway? Your post it sounded like you were putting up a new route, but it could be a rebolt too. (?) Just a couple thoughts that may or may not be good in your situation: For rusted plated bolts, such as in the first photo, you may be able to just drill out the rusted shaft with a 3/8" drill, then re-drill the hole with the 14mm. On the other hand, I found that using the old bolts as directionals to stay close to the rock while rebolting was really a time/effort saver, even if a few snapped off each route. After rebolting we mostly removed the old hardware on most routes to eliminate confusion (specific SS bolts may still look good) and to keep rust stains from worsening. However we did leave a few for "historical" reasons, kinda like leaving a Kor piton on a route. Have you actually started the work? I'll be on Cayman Brac Feb 20 through March and will be bolting. I've been placing Ti glue-ins for 16 years there, and can give you a hands-on training if you want to come down.

Good thoughts John. A rebolting effort has been started by a Dominican guy who has largely been paying out of his own pocket for titanium hardware and supplies. He has mainly started by replacing rap anchors with tortugas that I believe he acquired from Josh Lyons. We are about to do a crowdfunding campaign and other things to raise donations for new hardware and supplies to both rebolt existing hardware and develop new routes, so it is really a two-pronged endeavor at this point.

I am in 100% agreement with chopping all the existing hardware and starting from scratch. We plan to standardize the rebolting and new route setting with specific hardware so that there is no guesswork involved for other climbers in determining if a route is safe or not.

I just got back from 2 weeks down in the DR and have burned through all my vacation time and money, otherwise I'd take you up on your offer in a New York second. My partner in this venture down in the DR may be interested in some mentorship, but he also has quite a bit of experience with placing Ti glue ins (this is the Dominican guy I mentioned above). I do hope to get over to Brac someday -- it's been capturing my curiosity for a while now.

I will be back down at Fronton in May, hopefully with plenty of new Ti hardware in hand to keep us busy for a couple of weeks.

Hi guys,

Sorry for cross post, but just wanted to give you all a heads up that we have launched our not-for-profit crowdfund campaign for re-bolting and developing climbs in one of the most magical climbing locations in the Caribbean -- Playa Fronton, Dominican Republic. Please have a look at our page. No donation is too small!

Link to generosity.com page here: igg.me/at/tS0QLem5TeI

We appreciate your support!
Ben

Support re-bolting in the DR!

We've reached the halfway point on the timeline of our 30-day fundraiser campaign on indiegogo. We have raised enough at this point to acquire 100 titanium bolts from Titan Climbing in UK. Martin at Titan has been gracious enough to donate one bolt per 10 bolts purchased for our campaign. Many thanks Martin!

While we have started off well, we still need to keep the momentum going, so if you haven't checked out our crowdfund page please visit our link below and consider contributing a small donation. A modest donation of $15 will cover the cost of one titanium bolt! Every bolt matters.

We appreciate your support!

Link to page: igg.me/at/tS0QLem5TeI

Ben

I know this place is awsome I did some bouldering there and start some of those rocks but I never end up doing much for the same problem, unsafe bolts,,, but awsome limestone I agree..

We have only 3 more days left on our campaign. Please consider a donation before time runs out!

We're getting started with this rebolting effort. For the RE-500 in hot climates, do you guys go to the extent of transporting the glue to the crag in a cooler filled with ice, etc. on the day of installation? Or is it going to be ok to be un-chilled for most of a hot day? It's been about 90 degrees here lately, ambient temperature. I know heat has a huge impact on shelf life, workability, and working time, but just wondering how careful I have to be in this kind of temps.

I haven't used RE-500 in 90+F temps but many times in the lower 80's.

Don't worry about keeping it cool at the crag. Just keep unused packets in the fridge at home and then put one or two in your pack for the day. Partially used packets will be fine out of the fridge for several days, if more than that, take them out of the gun and put them back in the fridge.

If you have your bolt placements previously marked and you work smartly, you should be able to drill, brush, blow, inject, insert the bolt and then jug to the next placement before the glue gels in the mixer.

If you're trying to decide where the bolt should go on-the-fly, you may have the glue harden in the mixer. If that starts to happen, pump some glue (1/2 squeeze) into a plastic bag (this is the same bag you used to "waste" some glue in order to ensure the glue is properly mixed in a new mixer). I also always take a second mixer.

You'll certainly have glue remaining in a packet at the end of a route. Leave the mixer on the packet until you're ready to use it again. You can break off the end of the mixer to make it smaller, or remove the mixer and put on the red cap the packet came with.

To use the remaining glue, remove the old mixer and, using a flat wooden stick, scoop out any hardened pieces of glue you find in the nozzle of the packet. If you don't, these chunks will clog the new mixer. When these are gone, put on a new mixer and go bolting.