new cams?

If anyone wants to compare BD with Metolius.

Black Diamond Ultralight Camalot vs. Metolius Ultralight Master Cam Comparison Guide

Here is my 50 cents. I have a double rack of C4s and recently got a BD #3 Ultralight. I climb mostly in Gunks and, as many might know, the majority of the cracks are horizontal there. I find that the stem of BD Ultralight is more fitted for vertical cracks. The stem feels way stiffer when bent in the horizontals vs verticals. I guess it's good if you climb a lot of verticals tho.

bentgate.com/wild-country-f…

Bent Gate has the new Friends in stock, looked like 4 or 5 sets on the wall. I handled a #3 next to a #3 Camalot and they seemed virtually identical (aside from the obvious differences like the sling). Might be my imagination but it looked like the Friend didn't get quiiiiite as narrow when fully retracted... difference in cam angle?

I gotta say, black diamond dropped the ball with their new ultralight cams, they now had no reason at all to not use a extendable sling, it makes sense in every respect and has literally 0 downsides. I think most of people would only consider the ultralights for an alpine rack so it makes even more sense to have an extendable sling.

I don't like the extendable slings. I have some DMM cams that i will resling with nylon. The dyneema wears out quicker. The easy extension is nice, but I can't get over how shitty the dyneema slings are.

Yeah, that kinking issue shouldn't exist with the dyneema yeah? So that's actually a real benefit of the ultralight over traditional, once you of course modify it to take advantage of its new properties... Derp

that guy named seb wrote:I gotta say, black diamond dropped the ball with their new ultralight cams, they now had no reason at all to not use a extendable sling, it makes sense in every respect and has literally 0 downsides. I think most of people would only consider the ultralights for an alpine rack so it makes even more sense to have an extendable sling.

Extendable slings weigh more.

that guy named seb wrote:they now had no reason at all to not use a extendable sling, it makes sense in every respect and has literally 0 downsides.

It literally has several downsides. With an extendable sling, the biner cannot be fixed in place, and is free to rotate all over the f***ing place, so when you're at the crux of your 5.12 project, the biner will almost certainly be upside down when you go to clip it. Further, on more occasions than I can possibly count, I've looked down to find the biner on my last piece was nose hooked or otherwise doing some crap that would be make for an interesting day should I had fallen on it. Some biners are less prone to this than others, but there are enough biners prone to this problem out there that I've seen it happen with almost everyone I've climbed with at one point or another. With a single sling, I can fix the biner to the end with a hairtie so it wont move around, which is a big, big plus.

20 kN wrote: It literally has several downsides. With an extendable sling, the biner cannot be fixed in place, and is free to rotate all over the f***ing place, so when you're at the crux of your 5.12 project, the biner will almost certainly be upside down when you go to clip it. Further, on more occasions than I can possibly count, I've looked down to find the biner on my last piece was nose hooked or otherwise doing some crap that would be make for an interesting day should I had fallen on it. Some biners are less prone to this than others, but there are enough biners prone to this problem out there that I've seen it happen with almost everyone I've climbed with at one point or another. With a single sling, I can fix the biner to the end with a hairtie so it wont move around, which is a big, big plus.

you can still fix the issue with the same method... i literally just did it.

Dylan Pike wrote:I don't like the extendable slings. I have some DMM cams that i will resling with nylon. The dyneema wears out quicker. The easy extension is nice, but I can't get over how shitty the dyneema slings are.

the slings on the ultralight are dyneema anyway.

Also while extendable slings weigh more initially they mean you don't have to carry extra draws.

See, it seems like you would in theory, right? But then that only works if you know exactly what gear you're using, as anything else (aliens, nuts, tricams, etc) that doesn't have an extendable sling is going to need a draw anyways. So, you either have to get ALL of your cams with extendable slings and be confident that you're not going to place any passive pro...or carry a set of alpine draws. The latter is much more flexible for a wide range of situations.

Ted Pinson wrote:See, it seems like you would in theory, right? But then that only works if you know exactly what gear you're using, as anything else (aliens, nuts, tricams, etc) that doesn't have an extendable sling is going to need a draw anyways. So, you either have to get ALL of your cams with extendable slings and be confident that you're not going to place any passive pro...or carry a set of alpine draws. The latter is much more flexible for a wide range of situations.

This makes zero sense.

Extendable slings on cams reduce the number of draws you would need.

jason.cre wrote: This makes zero sense. Extendable slings on cams reduce the number of draws you would need.

Do you guys really like those extendable slings? They go from 4" to 8". That 4" is almost never worth it, imo. Custom single sling length works, but you have to have a cam with enough loop to trad draw it through.

I dunno, thats just me. Normal 4" or tripled 24".

that guy named seb wrote: you can still fix the issue with the same method... i literally just did it.

With what method?

This is speculation, but I imagine when the sling is in "short mode" you could fix the biner to just one of the two loops the same way you do normally. When you extend you unclip the non-fixed loop.

jason.cre wrote: This makes zero sense. Extendable slings on cams reduce the number of draws you would need.

Heaven forbid you place a nut or another brand of cams, then you need alpine draws anyways. Now your carrying alpine draws and cams with draws permanently attached. Sure in a perfect world you COULD be carrying a little less weight, but PROBABLY not.
And in the Alpine, if I need to descend in a hurry and leave tat, it would suck to have to pull out a knife and cut the sling off my cam, retie it in a loop, go home, and have to get the cam reslung.

My understanding of extendsble slings was the main draw was convenience: they extend in less steps then using an alpine draw, or attaching a sling from over your shoulder. Meaning less time spent hanging at a stance.

It seems to me you're carrying the sling one way or another, and potentially carrying more with the cam's since each one is slung, but you may not need that many.

20 kN wrote: With what method?

You just put the hair tie or elastic band round one side of the sling, it still extends just as easily.

For moderate cracks the extendible slings work well

Often the biners are loaded over the edge of a crack or even inside one if hand sized or greater

Whille adding a draw will extend the rope outward, the biner will still be loaded inside the crack or over the edge

An extendible sling allows you to extend the biner and rope out of it

While extendible slins wont replace alpine draws, what they do allow you to do is extend the placement a bit where you might not have wasted a draw before

For lower angle moderates the reduction in rock friction can be quite significant when every placement is extended, and youll extend every one since there no weight cost in draws

For multi i usally carry up 2-3 less quickdraws when using extendible cams

For sustained harder stuff it doesnt really matter as except at good stances you wont be extending the cams anyways ... Youll be fighting to get any gear in

However even harder climbs sometimes have easier sections out here where one can extend the slings and have less drag before or after the crux, again at no weight penalty

;)

ewww not at all excited about these cams. I rode BMX for many years and quickly found that ultra light really means ultra fragile.

someone else pointed this out earlier in the thread but if you have a dyneema core to this thing that means it has a relatively short shelf life of ~2 years. when I spend thousands of dollars on gear it better last a long time.

in my opinion this is the worst thing I have seen from BD in a while. All of my rack is BD for the record c4s, c3s, x4s BD stoppers.

Kyle Cobbler wrote: someone else pointed this out earlier in the thread but if you have a dyneema core to this thing that means it has a relatively short shelf life of ~2 years.

Can you provide a source for this please?

For instance Metolius claims 5 years under normal use (no severe falls etc). But says it's use and wear, not time that is the main factor. They don't distinguish between dyneema and nylon.

metoliusclimbing.com/pdf/sl…