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New bolts at Crow Hill

Jonathan Haggerty · · West Acton, MA · Joined Mar 2014 · Points: 195

Warning: the ethics comity has struck again! The cord anchor was removed from the top of dune. Top roping is now being shunned by the powers that be. Leading has also been outlawed. I'm fact, climbing is out. We all knew it was just a fad anyway...

stephen arsenault · · Wolfeboro, NH · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 66

It took me over an hour to read this thread-WOW!

Several climbers have stated that the bolt on Cro-Mag was placed by me. I've NEVER placed a bolt at Crow Hill. That bolt has been there a long time, but I didn't place it, ( but I have clipped it many times).

Although not related to this thread; I might add that the 3/8" bolt on the 4th pitch of the Direct/Direct, on Cannon was placed probably 20 years after the 1st ascent.
I led the pitch sans bolt but have clipped the bolt on subsequent ascents.

It will be interesting to see how this issue at Crow Hill resolves itself.

Alan Rubin · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2015 · Points: 10

Hi Steve, Glad that you joined in, as undoubtedly the longest term Crow Hill climber on this forum. Do you remember who placed the bolt on Cro-mag and when? There has been a bolt there for a long time (my recollection is that originally there were 2), but I don't recall if it was already there when I first visited in the late '60s. Was it Paul Doyle, possibly as I know that he was active at Crow back then? Same question about the 'aid' bolts on Fisherman's? I know that Steve and Henry aided it without bolts, but some were added (and later removed) not long after their ascent.

Alan

stephen arsenault · · Wolfeboro, NH · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 66

Hi Alan,

I have no idea who placed the bolts on Cro-Mag. They have been there a long time,
as you know.

As far as the "up-rooted" pine tree above Jane, used as a top rope anchor. About 15 feet above where the crack on Jane ends, there is a pine tree, which was always sturdy, but 5 feet above the tree, there is a bomber crack, which tapers down from about 3" to 1 inch at the bottom. It takes bomber gear for a TR anchor.

Eric Engberg · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 0
Alan Rubin wrote: There has been a bolt there for a long time (my recollection is that originally there were 2), Alan
There was a 2nd one until relatively recently up by the wide part of the crack ~2/3 of the way up. Relative being the past 15 years or so. I think the fixed pin is still there for the final traverse too. And low anchors.
Jonathan Haggerty · · West Acton, MA · Joined Mar 2014 · Points: 195

That pin should be removed before someone falls on it...

Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422

You could also just check it and reset or replace it if it needs it.

stephen arsenault · · Wolfeboro, NH · Joined Aug 2011 · Points: 66

Just before that pin, you can get multiple pieces in, and of course the crack below is bomber for all types of gear. Since it's an overhanging face there isn't too much danger on a fall, ( as long as the gear is good), just saying.

ckersch · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2013 · Points: 161

The bolts are still there, as of May 2016.

Aaron Livingston · · Ouray, CO · Joined Sep 2012 · Points: 330

Bolts there today. Im visiting from UT and was lucky to get a climbing day at CH while out here for tower work. I have some notes on CH/this threads subject, as well as some questions on the area.

1. If you have ever clipped the bolts on "Cro-magnon", "Fool on the Hill", or the anchor on "Intertwine", but are still advocating chopping the bolts on Dune because CH is a "trad-only crag", then you are being hypocritical. You can have it one way or the other but not both. You can't favor bolts that you DO use while condemning bolts that you don't use at the same cliff. I AM NOT advocating retro-bolting routes with perfectly good gear. (If you climb 5.13 and refuse to climb Dune because of the local ethic but will happily make a trip to the RRG for bolt-clipping, then props to you for sticking to your guns.)

2. The fixed tat on trees needs to be either grey or brown. I saw many fixed anchors today that were several shades of neon purple, green, yellow or blue.

3. The 3 pin midpoint A0 anchor on "Jane" should be removed, not have chain added to it, as some one suggested earlier in this thread. There is a crack at the top and it takes bomber gear for a belay. That anchor was the biggest eyesore at the otherwise beautiful wall, much more unsightly and unnecessary than Dunes bolts.

4. I top-roped Dune and I think it's a route to write home about. Definitely one of the best faces I've climbed on and I've climbed in Mill Creek (in Moab), Yosemite, The Waterfall, Eldo etc. Places that are definitely world class. This is a world class climb at a pretty good crag. The locals should be proud of a notable masterpiece like this. There are 3-4 bolts and some pins on an 80 foot face, that hardly constitutes a sport route. If I came back with my rack I would certainly place a few pieces of gear to supplement the bolts. In my opinion it's definitely PG13  (much more so than some of the routes at this cliff that are given the same gear rating, i.e. outersite, blue face). However, I think painted SS glue-ins would be a more appropriate and low profile choice than expansion bolts for the hardware at this crag.

5. This concern that CH will get grid-bolted because of Dune is plain silly. The Fisherman wall has been climbed out, and it's the only face at this cliff that would appeal to anyone who does grid bolt. Everything else either goes on gear safely or is too short to bother bolting anyway (besides the Kemple/Vintinov terror fests and, as far as I can tell, nobody has been retro-bolting those. Correct me if I'm wrong). Most of this crags faces are third-class-able at relatively mild grades. Bishop has taller boulder problems.

6. I've climbed many fully-bolted sport routes out west on gear. Some were onsight and G-rated with the gear. Others were headpoints. That doesn't give me the right to chop the bolts on someone else's line. And if somebody besides me sent the route on gear I CERTAINLY wouldn't use that as justification for chopping said route. A FA is a vision, a work of art, and it should be respected by those who follow. By the logic some people on this thread have, we should chop every belay and protection bolt on the Freeblast because Honnold free-solo'd it. Looks like the rest of us are gonna have to simul-climb 5.11X because of somebody else. Can you see how that is silly logic?

7. If it was originally a single pitch A5, then community consensus is DEFINITELY to make it protectable. Bolting a famous El-Cap test piece is not the same thing, big wall climbing is for big walls.

Questions I had:

Was Dune done with the bolts on the FFA? If so, shouldn't, we respect that as a community? If not, shouldn't we respect that as a community?

Who did the FFA?

If "Intertwine" deserves a top anchor why not add one to Jane, Cro-Magnon, and Diagonal in order to prevent rock deterioration and protect the trees up top?

Has Dune truly had a ground up, onsight, gear ascent with no TR inspection? Because that would be fucking badass!!

Alan Rubin · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2015 · Points: 10

I'm not a Crow Hill regular but have been climbing there on and off for a long time, so will try to answer some of your questions. First, I'm glad that you enjoyed the crag. You apparently found it in a dry and relatively clean condition, which, unfortunately, is not always the case. Hopefully some time in the future you can visit our Commonwealth for a longer stay, so you can check out some of our other small but excellent crags, as well as those elsewhere in the northeast.

The simplest of your questions to answer is that John Mallary (may be spelling his name wrong) made the FFA. John is a somewhat 'colorful' character in New England climbing, which in itself has contributed to the Dune controversy. He did use bolts --not many--on the FFA. However, it is the context that is important in this controversy, in terms of both history and location. As you noted, at Crow, as at many other crags, especially those with a long history and deep tradition (climbing has been documented at Crow since the 1920s), there are a number of 'ethical inconsistencies' which surely do appear to give rise to your claims of hypocrisy. However, within the history of the development of this particular crag, mostly within an era when any bolting was looked upon with disfavor, the reason why bolts on certain routes are 'accepted' and others not makes somewhat more sense. It, in general, still remains about respecting the accomplishments of the first ascentionist (not necessarily the first free ascentionist)--though, of course, the bolt on Cro-Mag is an obvious exception. So the Dune/Fisherman's Wall situation, when looked at in that context, is of a hard, bold aid FA, by a very highly regarded local team, which then not long after saw the addition (and quick chopping) of 'aid' bolts which were looked upon by most of the then active locals as diminishing that accomplishment. So when bolts reappeared on that wall, even though now for a free ascent, there was a predictable reaction, especially given that that free ascent was 'tainted' --according to the local ethics of the time, by prior top-roping. When the route was subsequently led without the bolts (though with prior top-roping now considered acceptable) this opinion was reinforced. I'm not saying that this reaction was 'right', just putting it in local context ( since I am not capable of climbing the route my own personal feelings really should not hold much weight).

I believe that Zeb Engberg did a ground-up (though not pure onsight) gear ascent without a prior TR. I'm sure that his Dad will be along on here soon to confirm or deny.

I agree that more top anchors would be a very good addition. However, Crow is in a state forest under an administrative agency that has always been ambivalent, at best, about climbing on its lands, so climbers need to be careful about adding further fixed hardware without permission. This is further exacerbated by the heavy use of the area by non-climbers--many not 'well-behaved'--who could well damage or misuse any easily accessible anchors. Climbers (especially the Western Mass Climbers Coalition) have been working to establish more formal and positive relations with the Department of Conservation and Recreation, and this could hopefully allow for the placement of further fixed anchors with official sanction.

I hope this helps you understand, at least to some extent, our complex--but not really unusual, situation.

Eric Engberg · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 0

Zeb did TR Dune before he lead it.  The rehearsal involved practicing with the gear too.  The actual lead was done with 2 ropes and 2 belayers - classic Grit style.  Personally I think that accomplishment is more admirable then an onsight would be with the bolts that are in place now and its  a style that people should be trying to rise their games to emulate.  Of course that could lead down the slippery slope of what Nichols did in CT on a number of his wacko FA's.  As Al sort of aluded to a lot of it boils down to WHO exactly did the deed.  Such is life and human nature.

Aaron Livingston · · Ouray, CO · Joined Sep 2012 · Points: 330

Thanks for the info guys! Seems to be a crag with a colorful history to say the least. If somebody does chop the bolts again, (seems likely) hopefully they at least attempt pulling the bolts instead of just grinding them off. There were a few cut studs protruding yesterday which isn't really the greatest to look at. What's up with the old rusty rivet ladder to the left? I couldn't really figure out if that was one of the routes kemple free'd or just an old forgotten aid ladder.

Healyje · · PDX · Joined Jan 2006 · Points: 422

It's thankfully a lot less colorful without the army there rappelling, barking orders and throwing stun grenades off the top. It would be a grand understatement to say we did not see eye-to-eye on such occasions.

Nick Goldsmith · · Pomfret VT · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 440

Joe. several times when the army was  doing their rapelling thing with about 70 cadets @ deer leap I happened to swing by for my solo laps. these guys are screaming  at the top of their lungs, "PERMISSION TO RAPELL LINE ONE SIR"  while I quietly solo 10 laps on center crack...   several  ocasions one of the young killers asked me why I did not respect my family enough to use a rope.  I then had to explain to them that I was far less likly to get killed than they were. I am not at all impressed with their rapelling methods...... 

Nick Goldsmith · · Pomfret VT · Joined Aug 2009 · Points: 440

PS, its weak as shit to top rope the piss out of a climb so you can lead it without bolts with the intent of then lobying for the removal of said bolts...  just annother form of cheating and chest thumping.

Aaron Livingston · · Ouray, CO · Joined Sep 2012 · Points: 330

^ agreed. Almost as weak as leading a bolted route WITH the bolts repetitively, and then giving it a gear lead and claiming the bolts to be unnecessary.

june m · · elmore, vt · Joined Jun 2011 · Points: 110

 Personally  I believe  that  bolted anchors  protect trees and prevent  erosion. I have had a couple of my routes retro bolted  with out my permission and I have no problem with it, it's someone else's money not mine.  Ground falls suck. No all climbers have big balls  and that is ok,  most people  climb for  fun , and that means  being able to climb again  another day.

Jonathan Haggerty · · West Acton, MA · Joined Mar 2014 · Points: 195

I'm glad this discussion has gone from if the bolts on Dune should stay there (yes, of course they should) and turned towards anchor/fixed gear maintenance.  Nobody is maintaining the "acceptable" fixed protection, despite earlier claims in this forum (almost 3 years ago!!!).  I'm not advocating grid bolting anything, especially because there are no other clear lines that would open up, but I do think we should remove and replace gear that is essential on classics.  

Come on... am I the only one that cringed every time people whipped onto the (now ripped) tat on Tarzan?  How long until the rivet breaks on Cromag?  Lowering off a birch tree for Tarzan & Jane....brilliant!  

The community shouldn't allow ourselves, and the access to our most-local crag to be in danger just to humor an antiquated ideals of aid climbers and vandals.  Rock climbing has evolved, and it's time this community does as well.

Joe M · · MA and NH · Joined Dec 2008 · Points: 11,725

Well said Jon!

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Northeastern States
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