Sexy Grandma Jtree 5 Alpine draws taken

csproul wrote: You can clean up all you like, but once you keep equipment that is not yours, it's theft. Especially when kept anonymously, If you want to make some "ethical" statement, leave them at the ranger station or better yet, have the courage to tell the offending party why you took their gear down and invite them over to pick it up.

If i climbed the route, took the draws off and threw them on the desert floor only to be found a day later is that "theft?" What if two were found by one party and two by another? Gimme a break with the theft stuff..

Adam Stackhouse wrote: If i climbed the route, took the draws off and threw them on the desert floor only to be found a day later is that "theft?" What if two were found by one party and two by another? Gimme a break with the theft stuff..

Was the gear yours?

Roy Suggett wrote:I was not suggesting keeping the gear. Sorry I was not clear. Ethical WOULD mean turning the gear into the park. Thanks for the clarification.

The idea is nice but I don't think the park service wants anything to do with the thousands of pieces of gear bootied in the park every year.. Just sayin

If I free a stuck cam on a route, can I keep it? Do I have to make an effort to find out who left it there? Do I just leave it in the crack because it's not mine?

Hobo Greg wrote: That cant be the sole qualification because the stuff left by the curb that people are purposely ridding themselves isnt yours either, but in our culture, thats accepted as trash, free for anyone else to take, because it no longer has value to whomever is disposing of it. If it had value, it wouldn't be left out like that. Same for gear left on route, overnight, for any reason other than medical.

You know that is is not the case. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to recognize that the abandoned gear is valuable an that it was not left intentionally. It wasn't stuck. You can argue all you want that that they shouldn't have left it out, but taking it down and keeping it is nothing less than theft. I have no issue with anyone taking down fixed gear they find offensive. But don't kid yourself, if you want to make a statement about about the appropriateness of fixed or project gear, sneaking away and keeping the gear is not the way to do it. It is theft.

FrankPS wrote:If I free a stuck cam on a route, can I keep it? Do I have to make an effort to find out who left it there? Do I just leave it in the crack because it's not mine?

It's not the same and you know it. In that case, the person obviously tried to get it out and couldn't and abandoned their effort to recover their gear. You had better cleaning skills. I'll always take stuck gear if I can or even obviously lost gear. But I'll always give it back if I find the person who lost it. Because I would like to think that somebody else would do the same for me.

J Marsella wrote:Cleaning skills carry higher moral value than "not 'forgetting' your gear" skills and "climbing up a route to retrieve gear" skills? Whoever ended up with the draws outmatched OP in both of those skill sets. How are cam cleaning skills different and thus justifiable in the ability based model of morality vis a vis left gear?

Sounds like you've got some "keepin shit that ain't yours skillz"

The only ethical solution is to clean the draws, make a pile at the base and poop on them so no one will steal them.

J Marsella wrote:I have posted about gear I've found, i.e. Made good faith efforts to return. Have returned unstuck cams, even. I was simply entering into a discussion about (apparently) malleable morality. Thanks for the judgement though.

No problem...I guess that's the problem with morality, it's kind of subjective. The bottom line for me (you can do what you like) is I will booty stuck gear. I will pick up obviously dropped gear or accidentally left gear. If the gear looks like it was left intentionally (fixed lines, project draws) then I leave it alone. But if I do pick up gear, I will always make an effort to return it to it's owner and I will always return it if the owner contacts me. Intentionally keeping shit that isn't mine is just wrong. Sometimes I've gotten lucky and haven't been able to find the owner and get some new gear, but at least I can live with myself by making the effort.

Avi Katz, they may not want all the "collected" gear but after they (the Park} hear from me about what a lame ass mistake it was for the owner to leave the gear on such a high profile-next to the road line where hundreds drive/walk by, I think they would be happy to hold on to the stuff in hopes that they might get a chance to do some educating. They only legitimate reason I can think of for leaving gear here is that there was some sort of emergency. Otherwise, the owners should be happy to get their gear back, grateful I did not abscond with it, and contrite about having to listen to a sermon on access issues for climbers caused by "litter" complaints from passers by.

I grew up expecting my community to take my stuff if I left it out, so it is comforting to know now that I live in white bread suburban America myself that you people have an expectation otherwise. It is nifty that people go to great lengths to return gear (I have done so myself) but there is also such a thing as booty and to the bandit shall go the prize (I have done so myself). No matter the legality, you allow that line to be drawn by others when your ineptitude and laziness lead to the situation.

Of course, not reviewing the three pages here, I'm sure there is a lot of valid points and discussion over the very important five draw matter. My concern, however, is more with the rumored bolts recently added to the nearby Double Cross.

Dylan B. wrote:Project draws on a 5.14b are pretty clearly not abandoned. This falls somewhere in between. In my opinion, five alpine draws left overnight on a J-Tree climb are not clearly abandoned, and therefore still the property of someone else.

That's actually an interesting point. I have a problem with the common law definition you posted, since "unlawful" would seem to be determined by the criteria listed in the statute rather than made part of the criteria. In any event, I think your conclusion about whether this is abandoned is somewhat conclusory. If you leave property under the mistaken belief that it is OK to do so, then mistake of the law or common practice is not an excuse. I do like to think that someone would make the effort to reach out and find the owner, but that's a different subject to explore.

Having said that, I think you've hit on an interesting point that no one else has acknowledged. In earlier similar threads, where someone was "working" a harder route, others would have most definitely considered taking draws theft. However, if it's a noob who thinks it's OK to do the same on a 5.8+, then he deserves it because he's a noob? I have to admit, like you, I don't really see a credible distinction either.

Tradman's Booty Rules

#1 If you leave it for any reason other than assisting in a rescue it is booty as soon as you leave the parking lot unless you make it known that you will be back the next day to retrieve it.
#2 if you plan on getting it the next day BE THERE BY 6:00AM! Don't show up at 4:00pm and start crying when you can't find your shwagg.
#3 If it takes full screws,cams,nutz ect., and you don't know how to make a thread or bail anchor STFU and stop your whineing
#4 Just because it is late and you are tired is no excuse to start drinking and head home to your computer to beg us to go retrieve you shwag for you.
Hike your lazy ass back up that trail and find you own lost tool or stop whineing and write it off as lost.

Rules for finders.
#1 Stuff you find in the parking lot is Not booty. Its lost and found material.
#2 Any and All gear that is left or misplaced in the course of a rescue including the victims gear is NOT booty and will be collected and returned to rightful owners.
#3 any gear that is abandoned or lost due to incompetence, lack of skill, sack or sheer laziness is booty as soon as the former owners of that gear have left the cliff and given up attempts to retrieve that gear. Exceptions would be when the spanked party announces intention to resume recovery process at first light the following day.
#4 Finders of booty may offer to return said booty. The losing party loses face if they accept the return of their gear.

Rules for the losers
#1 Asking for your gear back is bad form and shows a lack of self respect.
#2 If the finder of your shwag offers to return it you may accept but if you do you will lose face. Buying them a six pack or case will help but in some cases still not completely erase the honor debt. If they offer , you refuse and they offer again and you accept it's much better but you should still buy them a drink and you still lost face just not as much face.
#3 The ONLY way to escape your embarrassing loss of gear without losing face is to not accept its return . A simple "; thanks for offering but you guys earned it"; should give you a clean slate 99.9% of the time.

The gear bootied in this case was a good snipe...so may violations

there's no shame anymore in society. Remember the days when it would be embarrassing, or at least an admission of your own incompetence, to ask others to return your gear?

It's total open season now to try to recoup all gear that you failed to bring down. I also hold these idiots responsible who clutter our webpages with "hey I found your carabiner" posts. "please let me bend over backwards to get it back to you"..... It's booty !! Just keep it !!

goddamit climb more and talk less

An excerpt from the California Civil Code, which may or may not apply within Joshua Tree National Park depending on whether the federal enclave doctrine is applicable, is reproduced below. I think all states have similar laws, although the details vary.

36 CFR 2.22, which is applicable within JTNP, states that property may not be left unattended for more than 24 hours (except under a special use permit or as a backcountry cache, as modified by JTNP rules). By implication, property may be left for periods of less than 24 hours without violating park rules. I point that out since, in other threads addressing this issue, the claim has been made that hanging draws are abandoned property under local law or regulation. Of course, even if hanging draws do violate a local law or regulation regarding abandoned property, that creates a right of law enforcement or park personnel to take charge of the property--not a right of any person to take the property (duh--just because you park your car in a two-hour zone for three hours doesn't mean I can take it).

That same regulation also requires found property to be turned into the Superintendent of the Park.

• ******************************************

2080. Any person who finds a thing lost is not bound to take charge
of it, unless the person is otherwise required to do so by contract
or law, but when the person does take charge of it he or she is
thenceforward a depositary for the owner, with the rights and
obligations of a depositary for hire. Any person or any public or
private entity that finds and takes possession of any money, goods,
things in action, or other personal property, or saves any domestic
animal from harm, neglect, drowning, or starvation, shall, within a
reasonable time, inform the owner, if known, and make restitution
without compensation, except a reasonable charge for saving and
taking care of the property. Any person who takes possession of a
live domestic animal shall provide for humane treatment of the
animal.

2080.1. (a) If the owner is unknown or has not claimed the
property, the person saving or finding the property shall, if the
property is of the value of one hundred dollars ($100) or more,
within a reasonable time turn the property over to the police
department of the city or city and county, if found therein, or to
the sheriff's department of the county if found outside of city
limits, and shall make an affidavit, stating when and where he or she
found or saved the property, particularly describing it. If the
property was saved, the affidavit shall state:
(1) From what and how it was saved.
(2) Whether the owner of the property is known to the affiant.
(3) That the affiant has not secreted, withheld, or disposed of
any part of the property.
(b) The police department or the sheriff's department shall notify
the owner, if his or her identity is reasonably ascertainable, that
it possesses the property and where it may be claimed. The police
department or sheriff's department may require payment by the owner
of a reasonable charge to defray costs of storage and care of the
property.

2080.2. If the owner appears within 90 days, after receipt of the
property by the police department or sheriff's department, proves his
ownership of the property, and pays all reasonable charges, the
police department or sheriff's department shall restore the property
to him.

2080.3. (a) If the reported value of the property is two hundred
fifty dollars ($250) or more and no owner appears and proves his or
her ownership of the property within 90 days, the police department
or sheriff's department shall cause notice of the property to be
published at least once in a newspaper of general circulation. If,
after seven days following the first publication of the notice, no
owner appears and proves his or her ownership of the property and the
person who found or saved the property pays the cost of the
publication, the title shall vest in the person who found or saved
the property unless the property was found in the course of
employment by an employee of any public agency, in which case the
property shall be sold at public auction. Title to the property shall
not vest in the person who found or saved the property or in the
successful bidder at the public auction unless the cost of
publication is first paid to the city, county, or city and county
whose police or sheriff's department caused the notice to be
published.
(b) If the reported value of the property is less than two hundred
fifty dollars ($250) and no owner appears and proves his or her
ownership of the property within 90 days, the title shall vest in the
person who found or saved the property, unless the property was
found in the course of employment by an employee of any public
agency, in which case the property shall be sold at public auction.

Jesus! We need a crag lawyer or something. It's only 5 draws... sucks but life goes on. In other news, anyone want to buy 5 draws great for such routes as Sexy Grandma.

Colonel Mustard wrote:My concern, however, is more with the rumored bolts recently added to the nearby Double Cross.

Didn't see any new bolts around Double Cross. Only the two anchor bolts at the top of the route. Hope that helps.

Colonel Mustard wrote:I grew up expecting my community to take my stuff if I left it out, so it is comforting to know now that I live in white bread suburban America myself that you people have an expectation otherwise.

Growing up in the inner city myself I have a similar experience, but go out of my way to do right and not become the stereotype.

What's f*cked up is that the climbing community didn't miss an opportunity to sh*t on another climber who made a mistake. Hope you get your gear back Upgrade