Simul rap on Mammut Alpine Smart - Is this safe?

Just like the title says.... I've done it once but can't seem to find out this is an approved method from the climbing community. Does anyone else do this?

BryanOC wrote:Just like the title says.... I've done it once but can't seem to find out this is an approved method from the climbing community. Does anyone else do this?

You can sumulrap on pretty much any belay device, even the munter hitch. You set up the device the exact same way you would if you were rapping on just one rope strand, because, well, you are just rapping on one rope strand.

I've never been able to rappel smoothly with a Smart. No matter how hard I try, it's still pretty "bouncy" which is not ideal for simulrapping. If I'm simulrapping, I'll generally only simul rap when both of us are on ATC's with autoblock knots. Even a grigri isn't ideal.

Will you die? Probably not. There's nothing inherently wrong with simulrapping on a Smart. But it definitely reduces your margin of safety by some degree, and that reduction is too much for my conservative tastes.

Jon H wrote:Even a grigri isn't ideal.

I've probably sumulrapped close to 750 pitches using a GriGri without a problem. A GriGri is as ideal is it gets. It's great for the job.

20 kN wrote: I've probably sumulrapped close to 750 pitches using a GriGri without a problem. A GriGri is as ideal is it gets. It's great for the job.

+1. Gri gri is ideal, and i have simul-rapped....500+ pitches. Safe, fast, efficient. Prussic really sucks with single lines when they are thin. And i ALWAYS back up my ATC with a prussic. Go with gri gri. It is also ever so much nicer when bringing up the follower, especially if they have to work a section, retrieve stuck gear, or etc. Not a fan of belaying leader on trad w/gri gri, but...did i just turn this into a gri gri thread!?
oopsss

The alpine smart may not "autolock" on single thinner strands, especially as it gets towards the end of the rope

It is not a substitute for a prussik

;)

I think this is true for any assisted locking device, not just the Smart. But the question of what is or isn't safe is far from easy to agree on, because it depends on perceived risk, which may or may not be particularly related to actual risk.

The most important safeguard for simul raps is to have knots in the ends of the ropes. Whether or not to have some kind of system to stop a rappeller who releases the brake stand is more open to debate, but I think the worst possible adaptation is to have a system the climber thinks will lock but which won't in all cases.

The safest way to simo rap is to simply not do it ;)

Ever had a partner hurt on the 12th pitch?
Ever had a storm blow in 9 pitches up, and you had to get out NOW?
Ever hit the top in the dark, with 16 raps to the bottom?
Ever rap a different line than you climbed, and the 11 stations were neither obvious or 'straight down'?
Sometimes it is very much safer to simul.
And besides, it is so much funner!

I've changed my mind about simul-rapping over the years. It has pluses and minuses, some in the direction of increased safety and some in the direction of increased danger.

Everyone knows the obvious minuses, including at least doubling the load on the rap anchor and the catastrophic failure modes, which are not hypothetical and have resulted in fatalities to the parties involved. The fact (see previous post) that simul-rapping is viewed as a solution to stressful situations naturally increases the chances of activating one of those catastrophic failure modes.

I used to think simul rapping wasn't that much faster, but have changed my mind after having been totally smoked by a simul-rapping party while proceeding with full efficiency in standard mode. And balancing the extra risks in stressful situations is the possibly very significant advantage of having the two party members together and able to share decision-making and communication.

As for it being more fun, that is where I think stupidity begins. You don't add extra risks---and make no mistake, you are adding extra risks---unless there is a good counterbalancing reason. Simulrapping off a three-pitch route doesn't make any objective sense to me, but of course everyone has to make their own calls and live (or die) with the consequences.

Returning to the original question, I'd be extremely wary, given the added risks, of trusting any assisted-locking device to function as a rappel backup for simul-rapping. If you believe in the need for a backup, then it makes no sense to use one that might not work. This goes for prussik backups as well, which I periodically see tied too loosely to grab in a fall.

rgold wrote:I think this is true for any assisted locking device, not just the Smart. But the question of what is or isn't safe is far from easy to agree on, because it depends on perceived risk, which may or may not be particularly related to actual risk. The most important safeguard for simul raps is to have knots in the ends of the ropes. Whether or not to have some kind of system to stop a rappeller who releases the brake stand is more open to debate, but I think the worst possible adaptation is to have a system the climber thinks will lock but which won't in all cases.

The smart is particularly bad at it

On a vertical singlr strand rap, it simply wont "autolock" on my 9.5mm mammut infinity

For simul rap purposes at that range it no better than an ATC

;)

This is like starting a thread on best practice for simul climbing.

Not shure what is safer about about simo rapping in the dark or in any stressfull situation.

I think the actual increased risk in simulrapping is not as high as most people think. If both people know what they are doing the added risk is very marginal. Regardless of what method of rappelling you chose, you're still basically doing the same thing. The main difference is that both climbers need to be aware that they cannot unweight the rope and they need to be careful when starting the rap so one person doesent suck the other person into the belay and force open the cam on the GriGri. If you're using an ATC, then also be aware that one strand of rope provides less friction than two.

Muscrat. my partner is hurt I am either lowering them or rapping with them attached to me. Certainly not simo rapping with someone who is not 100%

I am not afraid of the dark. on anything big I carry 2 headlamps.
rushing to beat the dark is a better way to get killed than keeping your usual solid pace and being comfortable if it gets dark. rapping an unknown rt in the dark you suggest I simo rap? Not going to happen. I will not commit both climbers to and unknown rap at the same time. leader goes first, finds a solid anchor and guides the 2nd in. beating a storm. yes I can see that working in many situations but if it gets too close one lighting strike kills both climbers.

Nick got it right! Redundancy is still an important concept! Simo-raps are ONLY for emergency.

You guys are great. Thanks for the input.

I've found some of your comments to be very true. On a Smart alpine, I've also found that the "autoblock" to be very weak on a 9.5mm rope, rapping on a single strand. My prussik held me, but the smart alpine would let rope out slowly, inch by inch. The 50% less friction from only having one rope, is enough to keep the smart from being that smart.

And as others have said, I've also been smoked coming down a route by simul rapping partners vs. my own standard rapping party. Simul is definitely faster.

For my own personal safety, I'm going to try and only doe a regular single person rap, and keep the simul raps for situations that NEED the extra speed, at the expense of a reduced margin of safety.

Your mileage may vary! Safe climbing!

Simo rap is a good thing to practice and a quick way to get down from a storm if the anchors are bombproof. Not a good idea at night, super tired, into the unknown or with an injured climber INMOP.