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Preplaced draws on a sport route

jkw · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2015 · Points: 10
J Q · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 50

I climb with roller skates on, a watermelon strapped to my ass, and with these huge brass balls dangling in between my legs ya see, so actually, my red-points are the hardest and realest red-points West of the Mississippi. Plus, in my crew, if you don't send the route in this proper style, you get beaten to a pulp with a stick. We do this to keep our head in the game and simulate the consequences of failing on an r-rated route with a hemp rope, a swami belt, and no helmet. I would like to see those little 5.14 gym freaks try to climb with such awesome style, I am sure none of them are man enough!

WE the real gangsters on the block yo!

Ondra doesn't have shit on me!

Ted Pinson · · Chicago, IL · Joined Jul 2014 · Points: 252

Sounds like BD is going to need to start working on ultralight bolt-guns! It doesn't count unless you bolted it from the ground up. If you fall, you have to pull out all of the bolts and start over.

Trad Princess · · Not That Into Climbing · Joined Jan 2012 · Points: 1,175
Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
caughtinside wrote:It's a good troll though, right back to the beginning of sport climbing. If you want to call it vertical gymnastics, that's fine with me (although I am not very flexible).
Hardly a new or novel description. I believe it was in climbing literature at least as far back as the 60's, perhaps earlier.
And a lot of folks are referring to this as a debate about ethics. Nope, this is strictly about style of ascent.
Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
Jake Jones wrote:You're still missing it. Your argument is that it makes it "more difficult" in whatever way.
I wonder how Brian L feels about sticky rubber? When Fires were introduced, some of the old school squawked that they made climbs easier, in some cases by a full grade, and their use was debated just as vehemently.
Same thing happened when Friends were introduced - it made protecting cracks too easy - just plug and go.
Same thing happened when nuts reached a point of technology where they replaced pitons.
Brian L. · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Feb 2016 · Points: 90
Jake Jones wrote: You're still missing it.

No, I get what you guys are saying. I really do. I just disagree with it. But honestly, probably not to the extent you seem to think I do. I'll get to that in a second.

MP seems to have this thing where if you don't agree with the majority you either "don't get it", are a "noob", or you're just plain insulted. Which leads to thread degradation like we saw here. I see a lot of complaining about "trolls", but I'm legitimately trying to have a discussion, and I think my initial posts were pretty respectful. I was met with a lot of derision, and responded in kind. Maybe the problem with MP isn't "trolls" but how the normal members treat people with dissenting opinions.

Jake Jones wrote: We could sit at the base and pelt golf ball-sized rocks at you too. That would make it more difficult, but doesn't have much to do with the climbing.

The difference is that pelting golf balls, or climbing with a watermelon on your harness, or whatever other ridiculous contrived method of increasing difficulty is different, at least in my eye's, then placing the equipment that will protect you in a fall - even if that's just a quickdraw on a bolt.

These examples, to me, are like comparing an apple to a bowling ball, and saying you shouldn't eat an apple because you can't eat a bowling ball.

I guess the difference is you don't see that as part of climbing, and just a necessary inconvenience?

Jake Jones wrote:Holding onto a hold and keeping a stance a bit longer to mindlessly clip a draw to a bolt doesn't enhance the difficulty of the climbing. It adds an extra and unnecessary step to protecting. There is a distinct difference there that you're not getting. An equivalence would be to say "well, when I climb trad, I carry all my slings and biners separately so that when I need to extend a placement, I have to attach the biners to the slings and that makes it harder". That doesn't enhance the difficulty of placing the pro or doing the moves. It's just stupid.
I see it as more than just hanging at a stance longer. Having a pre-placed draw can change the climb. The stance you clip from could be different. Maybe you can clip the draw from a position where you wouldn't be able to clip the bolt. Making that extra or two moves can impact the climb, and the mental aspect of climbing beyond the last bolt. That can also impact the type of move you want to make (dynamic vs static).

I don't agree with your example. Apples and oranges.

But honestly, I think you guys are assigning opinions to me that I don't carry. So let me try to clarify what I'm NOT saying.

I'm NOT saying permadraws or pre-placed draws are bad.
I'm NOT saying permadrawns or pre-placed draws shouldn't be used, or don't have their place.
I'm NOT saying you didn't climb "correctly" if you use them, or pre-placed draws.
I'm NOT saying you're not a good climber if you use the permadraws, or climb on pre-placed draws.
I'm NOT saying the draws downgrade a route (in fact, since any of the harder ones were set with them in mind, I'm sure they are graded correctly)
I'm NOT saying the route is significantly harder and should be upgraded because you climbed without permadraws

ALL I'm saying is I would give appropriate respect to the guy who was able to climb those hard routes without them. I also still respect the guys who climb with them. I just acknowledge that doing it without can be a bit of an achievement.

But we can agree to disagree on this point, instead of just going around and around.

Marc801 wrote: I wonder how Brian L feels about sticky rubber?
Technological improvements are different than permanently placed gear.

But this is a good segway to a question I have for you guys:

Disregarding the ethic's of the visual impact to the wall, etc, etc, is it your opinion that ANY sport climb should be able to have permadraws, or is there some line that marks when it becomes ok? If so, where is that lne, and why is it where it is?
Bill Kirby · · Keene New York · Joined Jul 2012 · Points: 480

So I my 5.9+ at the gym the other night has no style due to the draws already hung? Damn it..

Mark E Dixon · · Possunt, nec posse videntur · Joined Nov 2007 · Points: 974

Seems to me that debating sport climbing with Brian L is pretty similar to arguing with tourists about "how the rope gets up there."

NTTAWWT

reboot · · . · Joined Jul 2006 · Points: 125
Brian L. wrote: I guess the difference is you don't see that as part of climbing, and just a necessary inconvenience?
Hanging draws is not an integral part of sport climbing (neither is dealing w/ marginal bolts, runouts, injury prevention). They are (sometimes) necessary, that is all.

Brian L. wrote: I see it as more than just hanging at a stance longer. Having a pre-placed draw can change the climb. The stance you clip from could be different. Maybe you can clip the draw from a position where you wouldn't be able to clip the bolt. Making that extra or two moves can impact the climb, and the mental aspect of climbing beyond the last bolt.
Bolt placements are in many ways arbitrary, changing sequences to deal w/ clipping draws to bolts are then in many ways contrived. Pre-placed draws w/ extensions to your liking solves/equalizes some of this.

Brian L. wrote:I just acknowledge that doing it without can be a bit of an achievement. But we can agree to disagree on this point, instead of just going around and around.
Plenty of gumbies bring trad ethics to sport crags, just don't expect people that know better to acknowledge the more difficult style of ascent (on the warmups).
Will S · · Joshua Tree · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 1,061

Caughtinside sums it up perfectly.

For the OP, what am I supposed to do at my new (new to me, just moved) hard sport area, where virtually the entire crag is fixed with chain draws? It's permanently fixed, because it's steep AF. (Owl Tor, if you're wondering)

Photo: Andy Patterson collection



Have fun cleaning on that wall.

So I guess I can never actually redpoint a route there by OP stds, because I'd have to take a wrench, remove all the chain draws, epic between attempts cleaning each time, eventually send, have another epic cleaning, another epic re-installing the chain draws, and spent all @#^%$^ day wanking around instead of rock climbing. I don't work construction, and I sure don't want to spend my climbing time doing what amounts to unpaid construction/laborer work.
Eric Engberg · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 0
caughtinside wrote:Such a long post of all theory. The reasons for climbing with draws in place are many, and are obvious to most climbers who have tried hard(for them) routes where failure is a possible or likely outcome. If your only bolted climbing consists of stuff you will likely onsight and clean and move onto the next climb disregard. If you are trying a route 2+ times this all makes sense. Climbing without draws on your harness is more fun. Climbing with the draws hung is nicer because the climbing flows better. You are stopping less, for shorter amounts of time. The rhythm is more enjoyable. Cleaning routes is a hassle and takes time. It makes zero sense to do it between attempts on the same route. On steep or traversey stuff it is a pain and takes a lot of energy, including for the belayer. Plus you are now clogging up the route longer. Someone mentioned it earlier, but bolt placements are often decided on for ease of clipping rope with the draw already hung. I think we have all agreed that it is more difficult to send while hanging the draws. But most people don't care, because if that's the case it probably wasn't that hard for you, or youve worked it considerably on prior attempts. The example was given earlier that one could one up, or raise the standard by doing a route that had been done with draws up, by doing it while hanging draws. The regular way to raise standards... Is to just climb a harder route. If you do a 12a, your next goal isn't to do a 12a while hanging draws, it's to do a 12b. At the end of the day it doesn't matter, it's your choice what and how to climb. But I think much of what I just posted would become obvious rather quickly to any climber who spends time trying to redpoint a hard for them sport route. Pre hung draws are part of sport tactics, and sport tactics shouldn't be judged by trad standards, because it's a different game with different guidelines. To come in and question all that without having done any kind of projecting just makes you look like a child who walks in on the middle of a movie and wants to know...
Summed up as anything to do with gear - carrying, placing, fiddling - makes it harder and less fun. Most will agree about the harder part. Fewer about the less fun although still the majority in this (rather biased) thread/forum. And some will also quibble about what the next goal will be - maybe the ultimate goal is 12a trad and you want to get there by baby steps. Anyway lets assume that we agree will all you say and that anything tangential to moving your body from point A to point B is a distraction/handicap and needs to be minimized. The question becomes - why bother with a rope and harness? Why not just boulder? What if pads and spotting technique were improved so you could relatively safely boulder higher? What is it about "leading" that you need? I'm guessing that at some level you want to be a "climber". But in reality if you want to be a climber all those things become significant. At best you are a faux (aka sport) climber. Sherman summed it up years ago...
nathanael · · Riverside, CA · Joined May 2011 · Points: 525
Eric Engberg wrote: Summed up as anything to do with gear - carrying, placing, fiddling - makes it harder and less fun. Most will agree about the harder part. Fewer about the less fun although still the majority in this (rather biased) thread/forum. And some will also quibble about what the next goal will be - maybe the ultimate goal is 12a trad and you want to get there by baby steps. Anyway lets assume that we agree will all you say and that anything tangential to moving your body from point A to point B is a distraction/handicap and needs to be minimized. The question becomes - why bother with a rope and harness? Why not just boulder? What if pads and spotting technique were improved so you could relatively safely boulder higher? What is it about "leading" that you need? I'm guessing that at some level you want to be a "climber". But in reality if you want to be a climber all those things become significant. At best you are a faux (aka sport) climber. Sherman summed it up years ago...
Yea for sure, when a crash pad allows me to fall 100' headfirst without injury I'll stop sport climbing and just "boulder".
Will S · · Joshua Tree · Joined Nov 2006 · Points: 1,061
Eric Engberg wrote: The question becomes - why bother with a rope and harness? Why not just boulder? What if pads and spotting technique were improved so you could relatively safely boulder higher? What is it about "leading" that you need? I'm guessing that at some level you want to be a "climber". But in reality if you want to be a climber all those things become significant.
You find a lot of 75 move boulder problems in your area? You think a spotter is going to do anything but get hurt when you rip from 60', even if you have a stuntman airbag to fall onto (have fun hiking that rig up to the crags, nevermind killing all the vegetation)?

This isn't even an argument, it's comedy. If, as you said, your goal is to climb 12a trad, the you should be climbing a lot of 5.11 trad and a lot of >12a sport. The trad for the gear placing, psychological aspects, and crack specific movement, and the sport (and bouldering) to get wicked strong.
J Q · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 50
Eric Engberg wrote: S At best you are a faux (aka sport) climber. Sherman summed it up years ago...
Last time I spotted this guy he was clipping bolts at Maple, it was very disappointing, but then again, we all come to our senses eventually, lol.
Jon H · · PC, UT · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 118
Eric Engberg wrote: At best you are a faux (aka sport) climber.
Ahhahahaha. Tell us more about the good old days when you crushed 5.9 trad with your unimpeachable ground up ethics, your swami belt, and straight sided Chouinard nuts blessed by our lord and savior Henry Barber (PBUH) himself.
Eric Engberg · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 0
caughtinside wrote:but you want to make it about me a bit.
Sorry if it came across that way. I quoted you because you typically have the only articulate reasonable responses. You usually are the voice of reason (except for that time years ago when you wanted compensation for your girlfriend's shredded pants....)

Not much respect for those who have no knowledge or interest in history - not much interest in the outdoors in general - just see it as an expanded gym. Can't even introspect enough to answer why using a rope is important to them.
Eric Engberg · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2009 · Points: 0
Tim Lutz wrote: Sherman as a 'trad is better than sport' reference when he is an old school boulderer?
You seriously don't know what specific quote I am referring too? Maybe if instead of posting hundreds of times a day demonstrating how intouch with the cutting edge you are you actually took the time to research some stuff - you could come acrosss with more intelligent responses.
Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
Eric Engberg wrote: You seriously don't know what specific quote I am referring too?
I'm guessing the infamous "sport climbing is neither", which was hilarious for all of 2 seconds 30 years ago.
Fehim Hasecic · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 215

Jesus Christ! I just wanted an answer to my question, not a verbal battlefield? Is it harder or not? No pun intended. Our sport is progressing every day and it's amazing to see what some of the climbers are capable of doing in any of climbing's sub-disciplines. I think maybe one day someone will do all the hard sport climbs by placing the draws on lead and that will be amazing.
I'm a 5.9 trad climber, breaking into a 10a range and yes, I have brass balls. I don't climb sport that often, but when I do, I bitch about it.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

Trad Climbing
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