Communication when you cannot hear your partner?

bearbreeder wrote: Youre loading up newbies with THREE different methods ... Including one you claim is the "most complicated" .... And then dragging newbies up a multi Ever hear of KISSing ??? Ive seen the weirdest shiet in squamish, which is one of the moderate trad multi capitals (on the apron alone theres 10+ 5.9 and under 6+ pitchers that are often climbed) .... And those folks who blab about how much "better" their whisltes and walky talkies are .... Are usually the ones who are causing traffic jams and the most unsafe despite their claims to the contrary Its a 5.6/7 for gods sake .... Not sone wind blown expedition alpine climb .... If you need walky talkies to "feel safe" then you need to work on yr BASICS with yr oartners ;)

The more you talk, the more I feel like I am talking to a 5 year old. The difficulty grade has absolutely nothing to do with the ability to hear each other.

Secondly, the first two methods I mentioned, voice and walkie talkies, are a matter of simply talking so in a sense my partner and I really only remember one real method communication that requires some additional thought. If the idea of having a backup communication system blows your mind and you can't grasp that concept then you shouldn't be climbing. I hate to have to relate this to my Marine Corps experience, but anytime we went on patrol we had a back up plan for EVERYTHING. The same applies to the climbing world. Again I don't see how this is a foreign concept.

Michael Douglas wrote: Thanks Daniel! I would have to agree with the "old school" here regarding walkie talkies. They are actually potentially dangerous for the following reasons: - Drop potential: they need to be attached to your person with climbing grade material. The clips are either cheap and/or are not sutible for the vertical world - You aren't the only group in the area using walkie talkies: other climbing parties and even hiking groups in the area can be on the same channel and interfere with transmission. I have actually seen this on more than one occasion with climbing parties in idyllwild (usually groups climbing the trough or white maiden's walkway) - They really just slow things down: more time on the wall means less daylight and more fatigue; getting benighted on a wall unintentionally is not fun; also, you may not be the only team on the route What walkie-talkies can be great for: communicating with base camp or emergency personnel for backcountry/expedition/grade V climbs. It stays in your pack until you need it though. I am not the fastest climber, but having a systems-based rhythm with my partner(s) and quick gear transitions has allowed me to move faster up climbs with a 3 person team than most 2 person teams or do two grade III climbs in a day with time to spare. Groups generally spend more time building anchors and transitioning gear than actually climbing. It is not all about speed but rather the experience and bonding with friend while not killing yourself. All this to say though, if you really need a walkie-talkie, I would practice your " multi-pitch rhythm" and also be wary taking up beginners. You essentially need to be competent in your own skills as well as know how to teach the basic/necessary skills and communicate in a manner that suits that person's learning style. If given a walkie-talkie, a beginner will immediately rely on it to the point of obnoxiousness when they should be focused belaying and not dropping stuff. For those who are excited to share their passion of climbing with friends, I would encourage you to actually write up paired down, simplified (fact-check) 'lesson plan' on what you would want your "newbie" partner to know for whatever discipline of climbing you are doing. If it is more than 5 steps for "X" process, your description is too complicated. As much as people do not want to admit, they are freaking out so you may be teaching a stone wall. You are responsible for their safety, and never assume they know more than they do and do not use have them perform convoluted processes alone that their safety relies on. Okay, that was probably more than my 2 cents. Cheers!

When I said I take "beginners" I meant people who have been trad climbing for awhile but are new to multipitch. So really all that is new to them is the transition process at belays.

Daniel Evans wrote: The more you talk, the more I feel like I am talking to a 5 year old. The difficulty grade has absolutely nothing to do with the ability to hear each other. Secondly, the first two methods I mentioned, voice and walkie talkies, are a matter of simply talking so in a sense my partner and I really only remember one real method communication that requires some additional thought. If the idea of having a backup communication system blows your mind and you can't grasp that concept then you shouldn't be climbing. I hate to have to relate this to my Marine Corps experience, but anytime we went on patrol we had a back up plan for EVERYTHING. The same applies to the climbing world. Again I don't see how this is a foreign concept.

Oh dear marine corps (god bless em) "backups" now???

So basically you dont feel "safe" without walky talkies and need multiple backup plans?

Heres a simple situation

Yr on a 70m single rope with a newbie partner

- your partner falls near the start of the pitch, say 10m up, and because of rope stretch breaks his ankle ... Hes dangling from the rope in the air

- this is a full length 65m pitch

- you are 6 pitches up ... Its a mixed climb with some gear and bolts ....

- you belaying in autoblock on an ATC guide

- you have the built anchor (tied off fig 8) on two bolts, 2 short prussik cords, and 2 additional lockers ... All yr other gear was used in the long pitch below

- in the fall the walkie talky dies as it got knocked against the rock hard

What are you steps for self rescue, theres no other parties on the wall and no cell reception

As you ALWAYS have a plan ...

I mean yr "playing guide" with newbs ... You damn well better be able to rescue them

Especially as yr proclaiming how much walkie talkies will make one safer ...

;)

Michael Douglas wrote: Thanks Daniel! I would have to agree with the "old school" here regarding walkie talkies. They are actually potentially dangerous for the following reasons: - Drop potential: they need to be attached to your person with climbing grade material. The clips are either cheap and/or are not sutible for the vertical world - You aren't the only group in the area using walkie talkies: other climbing parties and even hiking groups in the area can be on the same channel and interfere with transmission. I have actually seen this on more than one occasion with climbing parties in idyllwild (usually groups climbing the trough or white maiden's walkway) - They really just slow things down: more time on the wall means less daylight and more fatigue

So I agree with everything you mentioned but there are easy ways to overcome just about all of them.

1. Fall potential - I do not use the clips (threw them away actually). I made a 550 cord loop with a double fisherman and the walkie talkie is clipped to a shoulder length sling around my shoulder so it is never removed from my person to talk and close to my ear if a transmission comes through.

2. Other parties in area on same channel - Change channel. Radio checks conducted before climb. Worst comes to worst and every channel is full, me and my partner use BOTH our names in every transmission so there is no mistaking who is sending the transmission (ex. "Kelly this is Dan, off belay")

Now compare this to your system based method, which is awesome, but arguably slower. Your method requires the belayer to belay the entire length of the rope whereas with walkie talkies I can simply utilize quick voice commands and know 100% that my belayer heard me. Every situation dictates what you will use obviously. If I'm climbing a long alpine route with an experienced partner than yes I would probably just stuff the walkie talkies in my pack and use the systems method. But if I'm climbing a 2-4 pitch climb with slight winds and a less experienced partner who I want to keep a closer eye on, then walkie talkies work much better. To each their own.

Just my two cents I guess.

bearbreeder wrote: Oh dear marine corps (god bless em) "backups" now??? So basically you dont feel "safe" without walky talkies and need multiple backup plans? Heres a simple situation Yr on a 70m single rope with a newbie partner - your partner falls near the start of the pitch, say 10m up, and because of rope stretch breaks his ankle ... Hes dangling from the rope in the air - this is a full length 65m pitch - you are 6 pitches up ... Its a mixed climb with some gear and bolts .... - you belaying in autoblock on an ATC guide - you have the built anchor (tied off fig 8) on two bolts, 2 short prussik cords, and 2 additional lockers ... All yr other gear was used in the long pitch below - in the fall the walkie talky dies as it got knocked against the rock hard What are you steps for self rescue, theres no other parties on the wall and no cell reception As you ALWAYS have a plan ... I mean yr "playing guide" with newbs ... You damn well better be able to rescue them Especially as yr proclaiming how much walkie talkies will make one safer ... ;)

I like how you dictate what I carry. Anyway, to answer your question, the biggest rule in any rescue situation is that you should never take unnecessary risk if the injured person is not in a life or death situation. In this case descending the rope would not be safe as it is weighted, considering the second has only a broken ankle. If I felt my partner hanging on the rope for an abnormal length of time I would lower him/her back to the anchor spot. Much of what happens from here on out would be dependent on signals from the second. If they secure to the anchor and untie then I would single rope rap, pull the line and bail on a rescue spider. If they decide to ascend the line then we would just bail from the top of the pitch. But no, I'm not going to descend on two prusiks without backup knots to rescue someone who fell on toprope.

Like I said I'm not taking people who just learned to tie a clove hitch up the mountain. All of my partners know how to perform basic self rescue (ascending, switching back to rappel, etc.)

Daniel Evans wrote: Now compare this to your system based method, which is awesome, but arguably slower. Your method requires the belayer to belay the entire length of the rope whereas with walkie talkies I can simply utilize quick voice commands and know 100% that my belayer heard me. Every situation dictates what you will use obviously. If I'm climbing a long alpine route with an experienced partner than yes I would probably just stuff the walkie talkies in my pack and use the systems method. But if I'm climbing a 2-4 pitch climb with slight winds and a less experienced partner who I want to keep a closer eye on, then walkie talkies work much better. To each their own.

Daniel, I appreciate your perspective and I acknowledge that paying the rest of rope through the ACT as a limitation of the systems-based approach (this limitation can be eased/eliminated with good flaking technique and a smaller diameter rope).

Ultimately, what I have been trying to communicate to the climbing community with the Climbing Communication: A Systems-Based Approach is an underlying understanding of order-of-operations enhances all other viable forms of communication (i.e. when verbal, line-of-sight, or even walkie-talkie communication is not possible you still know what to do - wind can still make it difficult to talk over walkie-talkies, sometimes you can't even hear yourself think). I usually use verbal communication, but I don't have to scream it because I know my partner will be doing the right thing whether or not he heard me.

Daniel Evans wrote: I like how you dictate what I carry. Anyway, to answer your question, the biggest rule in any rescue situation is that you should never take unnecessary risk if the injured person is not in a life or death situation. In this case descending the rope would not be safe as it is weighted, considering the second has only a broken ankle. If I felt my partner hanging on the rope for an abnormal length of time I would lower him/her back to the anchor spot. Much of what happens from here on out would be dependent on signals from the second. If they secure to the anchor and untie then I would single rope rap, pull the line and bail on a rescue spider. If they decide to ascend the line then we would just bail from the top of the pitch. But no, I'm not going to descend on two prusiks without backup knots to rescue someone who fell on toprope.

Ummm ... Every try communicating CLEARLY with someone 65m down with a bit of wind blowing? ... Especially if they are out of sight ...

Its the same reason you claim to use walky talkies

So youre basically going to lower him blind with a broken ankle and then take em off belay wihout absolutely clear communication about it

Doesnt sound very "safe"

As to the gear ... If you climb enough youll eventually end up using most of your gear on long pitches

Perhaps you should keep working on the basics

Do you even practice self rescue with minimal gear and under full body weight?

;)

bearbreeder wrote: Ummm ... Every try communicating CLEARLY with someone 65m down with a bit of wind blowing? ... Especially if they are out of sight ... Its the same reason you claim to use walky talkies So youre basically going to lower him blind with a broken ankle and then take em off belay wihout absolutely clear communication about it Doesnt sound very "safe" As to the gear ... If you climb enough youll eventually end up using most of your gear on long pitches Perhaps you should keep working on the basics Do you even practice self rescue with minimal gear and under full body weight? ;)

If all they had was a broken ankle and the full rope length was out, I would expect them to french free/aid themselves up the route then ascend the line as a last resort. I didn't say I would take them off belay, I said if my second was hanging for an abnormal length of time I would slowly lower them to the original anchor point to allow them to anchor themselves to the wall.

If for whatever reason they don't feel they can ascend the route, then their next course of action would most likely be to anchor themselves to the wall and untie from their harness to free up the rope allowing me to descend the route, which at that point I would feel on my end and BELAY in the remaining slack, consequently noticing they had untied and something is wrong. Single rope rap, clean the gear, ascend the line, set up normal rap, build intermediate bail anchors as needed to reach the injured person. Continue to bail on a rescue spider or PAS as required. I learned to trad climb through a Mountain Warfare Instructor from the MWTC in Bridgeport, CA and took multiple self-rescue courses from an AMGA guiding company in Joshua Tree. Yes I do practice with weight. Pitch mileage and years of experience on the rock are without a doubt both valuable assets, but when it comes to rope systems and concepts, anyone can master them with enough practice and sound mind.

I don't need to go back to basics, you just need to stop interjecting your dramatic conceded opinion into every post. Anyway I'm done here, I've used up my quota of posts and frankly don't see the point in entertaining what you have to say any further.

Daniel Evans wrote: If all they had was a broken ankle and the full rope length was out, I would expect them to french free/aid themselves up the route then ascend the line as a last resort. I didn't say I would take them off belay, I said if my second was hanging for an abnormal length of time I would slowly lower them to the original anchor point to allow them to anchor themselves to the wall. If for whatever reason they don't feel they can ascend the route, then their next course of action would most likely be to anchor themselves to the wall and untie from their harness to free up the rope allowing me to descend the route, which at that point I would feel on my end and BELAY in the remaining slack, consequently noticing they had untied and something is wrong. Single rope rap, clean the gear, ascend the line, set up normal rap, build intermediate bail anchors as needed to reach the injured person. Continue to bail on a rescue spider or PAS as required. I learned to trad climb through a Mountain Warfare Instructor from the MWTC in Bridgeport, CA and took multiple self-rescue courses from an AMGA guiding company in Joshua Tree. Yes I do practice with weight. Pitch mileage and years of experience on the rock are without a doubt both valuable assets, but when it comes to rope systems and concepts, anyone can master them with enough practice and sound mind. I don't need to go back to basics, you just need to stop interjecting your dramatic conceded opinion into every post. Anyway I'm done here, I've used up my quota of posts and frankly don't see the point in entertaining what you have to say any further.

sorry ... was out climbing yesterday ... missed this

my suggestion is that the first priority is to establish good COMMUNICATION ... you may not even be certain its a broken ankle if yr 55m+ up and cant see or hear em

thats why you supposedly carry walkie talkies in the first place on moderate trade multi routes no?

if anything, if your partner is not moving, its more vital than ever not to make assumptions unless one absolutely has to ...

so your "not so newbie" seconds cant be bothered to master basic systems, but are expected to be proficient in ascending the rope, etc ... self rescue skills?

;)

Same conversation from 2010 seems to have a lot of good replies.

mountainproject.com/v/multi…

Daniel Evans.

If you are taking out new climbers on mutli and you are running out 50-70 meters of rope while you disappear over a bulge to your belay, I am impressed that they ever come climbing again.

With new climbers be sensible, pitch it out.

Medic741 wrote:The continuous on belay, +1. Thanks for the idea there, so much better than rope morse code!

I agree with this approach.

I take radios all the time as well though. They are small, easy to use, and really just convenient. I use radios for so many other activities that I can't see the downside. For the people who think it is dumb or not cool or whatever, who cares. If it helps you stay safe then do it.

As long as you have the systems down with your partner you are fine. Personally we like continuous belay even though it takes a bit longer to feed the rope.

Rick Blair wrote:Daniel Evans. If you are taking out new climbers on mutli and you are running out 50-70 meters of rope while you disappear over a bulge to your belay, I am impressed that they ever come climbing again. With new climbers be sensible, pitch it out.

I'm taking them on climbs such as Breezy, Clementine, Wind Ridge, etc. (at Eldo). I use voice (first name then command as primary), walkie-talkies (secondary), and the continuous belay rope tug method mentioned before (tug-slack-tug-wait 20 sec-climb) as a tertiary back up. Again, they are not new climbers, they're simply new to multi-pitch/trad. I also taught them essential basic self-rescue skills prior to taking them up so they know how to french free, ascend the rope, escape a belay on ATC, etc.

Daniel Evans wrote: I'm taking them on climbs such as Breezy, Clementine, Wind Ridge, etc. (at Eldo).

Yep, those are pretty noisy routes, especially if the wind is blowing and the creek is raging at the same time. I believe Breezy was originally done with an extra pitch that most link nowadays with longer ropes.

When the rope runs out, climb. If your leader isn't a douche, you're on belay.

yes I'm that guy who didn't want to read the whole thread but felt the need to spout the same bullshit that has already been spouted plenty.

:D

I wish more people would KISS and have a nice silent communication method.

I was at Tahquitz this weekend. It was crowded and everyone is shouting shouting shouting. I saw multiple parties stop climbing until they heard their partners. Constantly, "Can you hear me!?" "Hello" "Am I on belay??!?" etc. It's kind of scary.

Continuous belay and be on with your day. OR know your partner and whatever system you've both developed. I'm fine with a solid shout, but people need to stop the constant desperate calls.

bearbreeder wrote: sorry ... was out climbing yesterday ... missed this my suggestion is that the first priority is to establish good COMMUNICATION ... you may not even be certain its a broken ankle if yr 55m+ up and cant see or hear em thats why you supposedly carry walkie talkies in the first place on moderate trade multi routes no? if anything, if your partner is not moving, its more vital than ever not to make assumptions unless one absolutely has to ... so your "not so newbie" seconds cant be bothered to master basic systems, but are expected to be proficient in ascending the rope, etc ... self rescue skills? ;)

climbing friend,

Do you even flash?

Being able to show your muscle meat and pull your 13+ moves is the only thing mattering, not your jimmy jacking around with ropes and self rescuing systems, and it will keep you safe even if taken off the belay, and in the company of the beautiful climbing girlfriend.

Why do you like to slap the wang of anonymous internet stranger so?

Myah!

Rick Blair wrote: I believe Breezy was originally done with an extra pitch that most link nowadays with longer ropes.

Yeah the first pitch of Breezy is pretty dumb, I just did it in two pitches so the couple I was climbing with could get extra practice with change overs and so my buddy could do the second pitch for his first trad lead. Eats pro and the anchor situation up top is straight forward.

Rick Blair wrote:
I believe Breezy was originally done with an extra pitch that most link nowadays with longer ropes.

Daniel Evans wrote: Yeah the first pitch of Breezy is pretty dumb, I just did it in two pitches so the couple I was climbing with could get extra practice with change overs and so my buddy could do the second pitch for his first trad lead. Eats pro and the anchor situation up top is straight forward.

You're not understanding. Shorter pitches aid communication.